question for you gas station owners re Ethanol

[67hat34c]

I found that in FL and most likely other states, all underground gasoline storage tanks have water in them. State of FL allows up to 2" of water. WHat happens when ethanol gasoline is introduced. Guessing forced phase separation, then if the pickup tube is above the water/ethanol mix then the gas pumped will be low octane and if tube is in ethanol then pure ethanol will be pumped.

What is the industry doing to prevent this?

 

[Boss Lady]

Nothing. Bought gas at you local 7-11 lately? LOL, not exactly candidates for jobs with NASA. The most they might do is go out and stick the tank once a week. you are on your own here.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I own a gas station and we went through this a couple of years ago in the midwest. We had to hire a professional tank cleaning company to come in and clean the tanks before we switched to the ethanol blends. Now we monitor the tanks for water with a special electronic probe 24/7. We also have a new water detection paste to manually stick the tanks with every month to make sure we don't get any phase separation.

Our state weights and measures dept is constantly taking random samples from tanks and they immediately check out any reports of problem fuel. It is ultimately the station owners responsibility to ensure a good product and heavy fines are levied for not following the safety measures set forth by the state.

 

[Boss Lady]

He was referring to ethenol, water, and gas seperation into different strata (returning to their individual components) and then getting a tank full of alcohol.

This condition would be very rare. First the pickup tube that feeds the pump is not at the very bottom of the tank, most tanks will not pump the last 500-800 gallons remaining in the tank. This ensures that the small amount of residual water cannot be pumped into a customers vehicle. Phase seperation would require the fuel to sit undesturbed for some time. Second even if it does happen how it would affect operation of your vessel will be determined by how much residual fuel you have in your tanks and the percentage of ethanol you have added. So we are talking about percentages here. You start out with 5%-10% ethanol in the storage tank,

When the fuel truck shows up and dumps a load of several thousand gallons of fuel you get turbulence mixing of everything in the storage tank. I would be surpised if there is any water in an ethenol tank since it is hydroscopic, unless the tank has a way for water to intrude (a serious leak).

Fuel tanks are required to have water sensors in them to detect leaks, and the state comes and takes samples. They levy huge fines for not resolving this if detected.

I have asked questions at many gas stations and they don't have a clue. The owners do but the clerk behind the counter usually doesn't.

 

[SeaEric]

In what time frame does phase separation occur? Weeks, months, a year? Just curious as to how concerned I should be over a winter, which here is maybe 5 months.

In the old old days, gas tanks fed from a fitting off the bottom of the tank. That was obviously discontinued due to safety concerns. It seems like a bottom fitting would be handy again now to pull off whatever "stuff" separates out.

 

[Boss Lady]

I do not know how long it would take or the conditions for seperation to occur. I do know that gasoline as produced today is no longer stable enough for long term storage. It really should be called car fuel not gasoline. If it were me I would run the tanks as dry as I could, if not empty, and then add one of the fuel stabilizers. Gas has been manipulated so much it does not resemble the gas I grew up with, they have done this for emissions, getting more gallons per barrel of oil, and more profit. I don't know about very cold climates, but down here, gas deteriorates in short order. My friend parked his car at my house while he was overseas working in Iraq. 6 months later, it would barely run when he went to take it home. We spent a couple days working on it before we decided it was the gas. We drained the tank and it smelled nothing like gas. Put in new fuel and it ran like a top. The next time was 98 days of storage, and the thing ran very poorly until he went and topped it off with some fresh gas, and it cleared up after a few miles. I have since found out that gas starts to deteriorate after as little as 30 days. This situation is really talked about by the small engine manufacturers, like lawn mowers and snow mobiles.

 

[67hat34c]

sky thanks for the info. I am a commercial insurance claims adjuster and have taken over an account dealing with convenience stores and gas stations. I had my first tast of bad gas claims and it was not even with ethanol, we dont have it in fl. the station owner did not know how to use the tank monitor and never bothered to get the tanks checked out on any kind of schedule. well he had over 4" water in the tanks and pumped that crap into tanks of about 20 cars. I wrote to underwriting and warned them of potential problems with ethanol on this program once it hits FL.

 

[Boss Lady]

I don't think ethanol will be a problem. In fact it will help eliminate your water problem, unless there is a real leak from a crack in the tank or fill neck where rain/run off water can get in. Ethanol will absorb water, and the state takes samples to test in the lab to make sure that you are not adding water.

The back up to the water monitoring meters is the old stick method. We use a paste that changes colors in the presence of water. It is smeared on the first 6-8" of the stick and then dropped into the tank. It checks for water level and you check for fuel level (dip stick) and compare the results with your meters. They should have a written SOP on how often this is done and the results logged. This way you know what is normal, and when it goes out of spec you know you have a problem. There are procedures for pumping the tank, and it has to stay out of service for 24 hours and then it is check for water level again to make sure that residual water is below state standards. Just because you insure the owner doesn't mean that they do not have responsibility to follow best industry practices. Put the screws to them to comply with state requirements and preventative practices. Our fuel tank insurance is already outrageous, and we all pay for the few bad operators.

The staff has to be trained, which is not what I see happening. Like I said I have asked questions at a lot stations and get the same deer in the headlight responses. Most of the these convenience stores are chains or have absentee owners, and are run with flunkies and part-timers who don't have a dog in the fight. Whoopie, I can get fired from my minimum wage job. Not a big threat there, but tell the owner of 15 stores that you will revoke his insurance until they have a decent surveillance program and see what happens.

 

[Jaxfishgyd]

Here in N. Florida, I don't thing any gas station is owned by someone not born in the middle east.... Am sure they are concerned about our welfare...

One owner was asked last winter how he knew what price to charge for fuel. "I ride down the road every morning and see what the others are charging and change my price to theirs"...

 

[34Hatt]

Steve the Ethanol problem is not so bad after you change tanks. It can be stored for a while If it is treated right. I pumped 12 gals of it out of my 19' boat that was sitting for two years had no separtion and I now and running it in my weed wacker and blower and it is fine runs the same and fresh. I would not advise letting it sit that long but we all know some times it just happens. So this was treated with you know what I use :-}}

 

[67hat34c]

We will of course have to change tanks on the boat if we still have it when ever we get e10. however my concern is for business purposes as i handle insurance claims for some gas stations in fl and have seen first hand some problems with water in underground storage tanks, add ethanol and there will be a whole new batch of trouble.

It would seem that if the storage tanks are cleaned prior to change over and they are properly monitored and the station has a reasonable turnover of inventory then there should be no trouble. However Hodji will no doubt cut corners to save a few dollars and me as an insurance company will have to deal with the results.

 

[34Hatt]

It seems when they change over there will be some problem for sure but the good news is it get's better as time goes on. Even the tanks that don't get clean all the way the ethanol will clean it up. Just matters who the unlucky ones are. When the do change try to go to good stations and Marina's. Then there is different things to do to keep it O.K. But like Chris said this is not the gas we grew up with.
All in all changing the tanks suck but after that don't lose any sleep over it.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

We use filters on each dispensor that will essentially shut down the flow of gas if they get any water in them. They are specially designed for ethanol blends and you have to use the right one for E10 or E85 ect. If you ever notice a pump running slowly, that is likely the problem. Most states require the station to post a toll free number on each pump for customers to register complaints. If you ever feel that you have received bad gas, call that number. No station owner wants to see those guys come out, even if they are confident that everything is okay. It's just not fun to be under the microscope.