Question About 55C Cleat Placement

[Sparky1]

Brian, I'm sure a cleat that's 10' off center would work fine, but there's little doubt it would require more effort to pull the boat to the wall from that angle under the conditions I described. I didn't measure the distance from the stern to the second cleat on that 55, so it too may be 10' off center toward the stern.

Heck, maybe the thinking is that putting the cleat 10' closer to the point you'd have to run to will make it easier when single handing a boat with no lower station.

 

[Brian Degulis]

Ok now I understand what your talking about you see it as a leverage issue the more off center it is the tougher it is to pull the boat up to the wall. The problem I see with that line of thinking is that it assumes the forces acting on the boat or the way the boat reacts to those forces are equal and they're probably not. Wind doesn't push a boat off a dock or lock wall evenly most times the bow or stern moves faster. So Maybe an off center cleat is a plus instead of a minus? If you know how the boats going to react say bow out faster then you can choose the cleat further forward?

Brian

 

[Sparky1]

Wind can definitely push a boat off the wall in a lock... been there, done that. It can easily swirl and take the bow off the wall. It is a leverage thing and it's also a matter of using a single tie point which would have to be best at the center of the boat.

 

[Pascal]

"Heck, maybe the thinking is that putting the cleat 10' closer to the point you'd have to run to will make it easier when single handing a boat with no lower station."

if you're going to single hand a convertible (or any flybridge boat without remote station), you need to set up (ahead of time) a LONG spring line from the forward spring and lead that to the cockpit, waiting for you to come down. as soon as you get close to the wall or dock, you pass that ashore, go back to the helm and put the dockside (or wallside) engine in forward, along with some rudders away from teh dock/wall. that will pin the boat to the wall/dock.

attempting to manually wrestle a large boat against the wind or current does not work.

 

[Sparky1]

"Heck, maybe the thinking is that putting the cleat 10' closer to the point you'd have to run to will make it easier when single handing a boat with no lower station."

if you're going to single hand a convertible (or any flybridge boat without remote station), you need to set up (ahead of time) a LONG spring line from the forward spring and lead that to the cockpit, waiting for you to come down. as soon as you get close to the wall or dock, you pass that ashore, go back to the helm and put the dockside (or wallside) engine in forward, along with some rudders away from teh dock/wall. that will pin the boat to the wall/dock.

attempting to manually wrestle a large boat against the wind or current does not work.

You say all this from experience?

I guess my single handing my one engined 58 and pulling it tightly by hand to the wall some 14 times was a figment of my imagination. Actually, when you use one line on a center cleat, there's not that much wrestling. Your described technique will work, but it's far from the best way to accomplish holding a boat against the wall of a lock. When one line is used, there is no running back and forth to the bridge.

 

[Pascal]

sure "it works", till one day the gust is a little too strong... but i guess it's good exercise, why pay for a gym membership or a solo flex when you can build muscles pulling a large boat with a short line. that's one way to look at it i guess...

it's also very entertaining for those watching...

 

[Sparky1]

Like I said, there's not much wrestling when using a single line on a center cleat. Quite frankly, it's not necessary to have the boat that tight, but it keeps equal pressure on the fenders if it is and allows fewer numbers of them to protect the boat. That won't be the case when using two long lines vs one that's tied to a center or near center cleat.

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Now, now boys...
Speaking from my experience, theres a few differnt scenarios as far as locking through is concerned. The lock by home has a 2 foot rise to the lake level. That one you usually float through. Wind is an issue even there tho... it will come across the top of the wall and the vortex will pull you hard to. The windward side will actually push you off. AND NOW...
The locks on the TennTomm run between 40 and 60 feet in rise. Wind??? You can test a 747 in one of those chambers! Current? Youll feel like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz! The best case scenario there is to pull in and put a breast cleat right on the floating bollard with a short line made fast (keep an ax or knife real handy!!) A fender forward and one aft will ride the wall; thats where the ball type fenders come in. Tube types take a real beating! My 58 has 5 cleats including one in the cockpit and the number 3 is just about amidships. Its right outside the wing door and makes locking through a one man show.
Tie off and sit back and enjoy the ride! ws

 

[Sparky1]

Hey Pascal, neener neener neener!!! LOL

 

[Sparky1]

"So in other words, one becomes a skilled captain when he buys a Hatteras. Hmmm, that would certainly explain a lot of things. "

i never said it has to do with Hatt... i said it has to do with the boat layout. indeed a convertible (or any FB boat) without engine controls out back is probably a worst case scenario when it comes to single handling.

i'm not going to argue this forever, but if you get better control with a "center cleat" and a short breast line when docking in gusty conditions, good for you. I'll chicken out and use a spring line when things get ugly. if you have 25kts coming down your stern you need enough line length to have time to pass it before it becomes taught. a short breast line will not do the trick, a spring will.

as to crew requirement in some locks, forgot which canal or system requires a second line handler... it's usually a non issue since few boats are single handed and few do the loop alone.

Gosh, I plum missed this one when I responded to Brian's post. We're not arguing Pascal, we're discussing things from a different point of view. Look up the definition of forum. You're wrong, and I'm right... it's as simple as that.

If you can't remember which lock requires a second line handler, why bring it up? I was hoping maybe you or somebody else might shed some light on locks on the Mississippi where I understand they won't allow pleasurecraft to tie to their floating bollards. I'm thinking they might make exceptions for those who are single handing a boat, but maybe not. It seems strange they won't allow the use of those bollards, anybody know why they won't? Maybe this needs another thread.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Last time down the rivers, we made up some nifty fender boards out of 2 x 6's and covered them in carpet. They worked great and we didn't trash any fenders. They were t-shaped with the T at the bottom.

 

[Pascal]

if you can only tie up to a single floating bollard then using a breast line, amidship, is the only way to can tie the boat during locking, no question about it.

but when you come in, short handed, if the wind is giving you problem, using a spring line to bring the boat alongside and then tie your breast line is the only way to go.

 

[Sparky1]

if you can only tie up to a single floating bollard then using a breast line, amidship, is the only way to can tie the boat during locking, no question about it.

but when you come in, short handed, if the wind is giving you problem, using a spring line to bring the boat alongside and then tie your breast line is the only way to go.

"If" you can only tie up to a single floating bollard? ROFLOL!!!

Too late Pascal, you've blown your cover on this one.

Sky, I'm not sure why you would want to mess with boards like that unless you're really proud of those fenders. I always hang my fenders (tube type) to where they get pinched in the middle at the rubrail. That keeps them in place and keeps them from sliding as the boat travels up. It also prevents scratching up the rubrails.

 

[Pascal]

your original post said "Either way, it will be harder to pull the boat to the wall and would really be a pain when single handing."

then...

"it still seems it might be a challenge to pull the boat against the wall by hand"

so i'll say it again, you dont' pull a big boat by hand, you drive the boat in position using spring line as needed, unless you're driving a 30' sea ray.

i'm done on this thread... keep pulling your 58 footer by hand, it's always entertaining to see folks strugling doing that.

 

[Brian Degulis]

Wind can definitely push a boat off the wall in a lock... been there, done that. It can easily swirl and take the bow off the wall. It is a leverage thing and it's also a matter of using a single tie point which would have to be best at the center of the boat.

Take another look at my post you missed the point? I know wind can push a boat off a lock wall DAA. My point is that is doesn't push it evenly most of the time. So if the bows coming off faster a cleat 10' forward of center would give you better leverage.


Brian

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Randy,
The fender boards keep all of the slime off of your hull. Fenders spin around and get that grunge all over. The boards get dirty, but they keep the hull perfectly clean.

I didn't use them when we kept the boat at Guntersville, but when making a big trip all the way from Chicago to Mobile, it's worthwhile to make up the boards.

 

[Sparky1]

your original post said "Either way, it will be harder to pull the boat to the wall and would really be a pain when single handing."

then...

"it still seems it might be a challenge to pull the boat against the wall by hand"

so i'll say it again, you dont' pull a big boat by hand, you drive the boat in position using spring line as needed, unless you're driving a 30' sea ray.

i'm done on this thread... keep pulling your 58 footer by hand, it's always entertaining to see folks strugling doing that.

In other words, let me try and change the subject so I don't look silly for making a 180 degree turn in what I said earlier about using an extra long spring line as a single breast line won't work! LOL

Ah Pascal, you kill me, you really do. Don't forget now, you're done on this thread!

 

[Sparky1]

Randy,
The fender boards keep all of the slime off of your hull. Fenders spin around and get that grunge all over. The boards get dirty, but they keep the hull perfectly clean.

I didn't use them when we kept the boat at Guntersville, but when making a big trip all the way from Chicago to Mobile, it's worthwhile to make up the boards.

Sky, not arguing as this is one of those, "to each his own" kind of deals. I've found that tying my large diameter, tube-type fenders in the manner I described keeps them in place while the boat is moving up. There is much less friction coming down, but no "lock muck" gets on my hull. The fenders can get a tad messy, but most of what they pick up comes off when they hit the dry concrete above the waterline in the lock.

The above is based on having the boat tied tightly against the wall so there is little or no forward or back motion. Using the bollard for leverage makes it fairly easy to pull a boat into position to accomplish that.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Sky, not arguing as this is one of those, "to each his own" kind of deals. I've found that tying my large diameter, tube-type fenders in the manner I described keeps them in place while the boat is moving up. There is much less friction coming down, but no "lock muck" gets on my hull. The fenders can get a tad messy, but most of what they pick up comes off when they hit the dry concrete above the waterline in the lock.

The above is based on having the boat tied tightly against the wall so there is little or no forward or back motion. Using the bollard for leverage makes it fairly easy to pull a boat into position to accomplish that.

I'm sure your method works fine. I just like to keep the fenders and hull clean. Like I said, I wouldn't bother if I kept the boat there and only locked through every so often, but for passing through the whole system you end up going through several locks each day and the boards seem to work out well.

 

[dwaynec]

Most of the locks on the Mississippi do NOT have bollards. The lockmaster throws or hands you a line attached to a cleat or the rail. The only lock I have been through with bollards is 19 at Keokuk, IA, and they do require that the pleasure craft tie to the bollards.

Interestingly, the locks south of Keokuk do not make you pull over to the wall and grab a line, they allow you to freefloat in the lock. North of 19 you have to pull to the wall and grab a line. That is when it gets to be real fun in a lock. Imagine trying to keep a boat tight against a wall when you have a line that is hanging vertically from the top of the wall 15 feet above you and the wind decides it is going to blow your bow or stern away.

My observations on the locks do not include Mel Price and 27 down around Alton, as I have not yet been through them. They may have bollards, but I don't know.