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Polyethylene Fuel taks

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I have really been upset over this ethanol thing also. My marina still has gas with no added junk yet, but they will be switching soon. I will fill up as long as the good gas is available but next season looks disasterous. First the tank problem, then as I am reading the carbed engines will be burning up valves as a result of a lean burn. My happy boating experience is ending and there is nothing I can do about it. I was thinking if there is a filter or process somewhere that would remove the ethanol, all my problems would be gone. There must be a process that can separate the two. Hopefully I won't need a refinery to do it. Maybe something the size of a shopvac where the fuel goes in and the ethanol comes out a side tube and real gas goes into your tank. Is there anybody out there who works for a refinery that knows if this is possible? This could be a great new business for somebody. I know I would spend $$$$$ for one. Ron :mad:
 
It's unlikely that they'll be adding ethanol to diesel fuel. The corn growers lobby has their hands full getting it into gasoline. Meanwhile the soybean farmers are lobbying like crazy for biodiesel, so you'll be seeing that blended into your diesel fuel long before ethanol. Unfortunately these decisions aren't made based on what works best or what's necessary, they're made based on money, like pretty much everything else in America. BTW, ethanol isn't being used to boost octane, it's being used to boost oxygen content for emissions purposes, just like MTBE was. The EPA doesn't give a rat's @$$ about your engines or fuel tanks or anything else as long as they keep the lobbyists happy. That's why when MTBE was found contaminating water supplies they phased it out over several years. If you or I were contaminating the water supply they'd lock us up immediately, not phase us into jail. Now I'll get off the soapbox before this gets out of hand....oops, too late.
 
We need a good supplier for the poly tanks. i cant find one that will fit. another member here bought 2 90's for his 34c. that is going to cut down on range. the tanks need to be min 120's. I called moeller and they blew me off, said they dont sell to the public, we need to go through distributor so we are stuck with off the shelf stuff. I could not find another manufacturer other than moeller, any other ideas?
 
Biodiesel is just fine - that's a GOOD thing, and the more of it, the better. Its good for your engines and has no bad effects on the tanks. No problem there, so long as it doesn't have any methanol left in it (and it can't if its going to meet ASTM fuel standards)

The RFG gasoline issue is a load of crap. There's no reason for it in current closed-loop engines. It does exactly NOTHING to reduce emissions in those engines. It DOES reduce emissions in older, non-closed-loop engines, but how many cars without closed-loop operation are still on the road? Not many!

This is all about politics and the farm lobby.... NOT air quality.
 
wonder if bio diesel is a negative energy source?
 
There was an article in yesterday's Newsday titled "Downsides to ethanol fuel" everyone should read it . . . it reconfirms everything we've been talking about since last fall. I'm going to write the author . . .
 
I’ve seen several of these supposedly “hard hitting” examinations of ethanol in the media lately. They discuss the problems with transportation of ethanol. (Can’t be sent down a pipeline) The possibility of shortages (good news as far as I’m concerned). The reduced energy content and subsequent reduced mileage. To me, they all seem to miss the big point. Reminds me of the saying about rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. No one seems to mention that for every gallon of ethanol burned in lieu of gasoline we INCREASE the net energy consumption of this country. Give me a break!
 
My thought on the "it can't be sent down a pipeline" point is that if this is a known fact, which it is, put it on a scientific level and apply it to our marine and auto situations...how can it be good enough to be transported and stored in our tanks? Wouldn't the fact that it can't be preblended be a big red flag and make them think about how even adding it post-blending is an issue for the consumer...so in essence, they are mixing it after the fact right before delivery so the issues with ethanol will not effect their operation, after which they really don't care what happens.
 
67hat34c said:
wonder if bio diesel is a negative energy source?
Click to expand...
No, but it cannot be produced in sufficient quantity from soy or rape (not enough yield and not enough land)

BUT - raw biomass conversion has apparently been made to work in Germany, and it can be produced from blue-green algae via aquaculture. Both of THOSE techniques are viable potential replacements for huge percentages of our diesel demand.

Note that the "simple way out" is shale. We have 5x the proven reserves of Saudi Arabia on federal lands out west. It is recoverable at a net per-barrel cost of $40. We refuse to go get it due to environmentalist pressures (the land must be strip-mined to recover it), but it is there.

We could have all the fuel we want for about $1.25/gallon (before taxes) right now, for the next 50 years, with a stable supply.

See http://genesis3.blogspot.com/2006/01/iran-bringing-us-energy-situation-to.html
 
While Biodiesel has tremendous potential it's not ready for primetime just yet. There are still some major issues to be addressed, besides finding an adequate supply. For starters, the same solvent properties that make it clean your fuel tank so well also act on many rubber components in your fuel system. So there will be retrofitting issues in many applications. While its Cetane ratings are excellent it has less energy content than petro-diesel, so we'll be seeing some slight power losses, or recalibrating fuel systems to compensate. The other big problem is that once the temperature drops below about 40º F the stuff gels rapidly. Maybe not a problem for the Florida guys, but a biggie for any diesel operator up north. Several municipalities have attempted to be proactive by using B5 or B10 (5 and 10% blend) in their fleets and in some cases mandating that all diesel sold have bio content. In most cases there have been serious issues, especially in winter.

Bio is in the near future, and will help significantly offset some of the problems with lubrication and Cetane that we can expect when Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel comes along, but more engineering is required before it's ready to be a plug and play replacement.
 
The seal compatability problems should not show up on any reasonably modern engine. That includes Detroits, by the way. The O-rings on the new-style fuel pipes are fine - I found out what material they're using and it should not be affected by Biodiesel.

The fuel gelling issue is material for operations at below-freezing temperatures. Most boaters will never run into this for obvious reasons. Land-based operations DO have issues with this, but they have those issues now as well to some extent with petroleum fuel, and they've managed to address it. How well the existing anti-gel additives work with B100 is not something I have looked into.

There is a REAL potential issue out there for less-than-properly-made Biodiesel however. Some current small-scale producers have let fuel out that has significant methanol content in it. Methanol is used as part of the process to MAKE biodiesel, but there should be none in the final product if the fuel is properly washed. Improper washing (read: haste driven, likely, by monetary concerns!) has led to some samples testing with unacceptably high methanol content. This, if it happens, is extremely bad for injection pumps as the methanol can lead to severe internal corrosion (read: $$$$$$$$!) I suspect in a Detroit it would likely lead to a high incidence of plunger seizures, which is likewise VERY bad, so there is definitely a potential for damage if product quality is not what it should be.

My personal view is that Biodiesel is a long term (20+ year) solution to the fuel problem, as it will take that long to bring online the production capacity from raw biomass and blue-green algae farming. In the meantime we need to go after the perfectly-usable PETROLEUM we have in the form of shale deposits, mine them, and consume them. Again - there's 5x the proven reserves of Saudi Arabia on United States soil.

The next time you fill your truck and put $75 in the tank, or fill your boat and drop well north of a grand in there, consider that the price per gallon should be a bit more than half what it is today. Its not because we simply refuse to go get the proven oil reserves that we have on this nation's soil and consume it.
 
Jackman said:
My thought on the "it can't be sent down a pipeline" point is that if this is a known fact, which it is, put it on a scientific level and apply it to our marine and auto situations...how can it be good enough to be transported and stored in our tanks? Wouldn't the fact that it can't be preblended be a big red flag and make them think about how even adding it post-blending is an issue for the consumer...so in essence, they are mixing it after the fact right before delivery so the issues with ethanol will not effect their operation, after which they really don't care what happens.
Click to expand...


Since the marine portion of the total fuel consumption in this country is extremely small, they basically don't give a flying %?@!$ about us. But if you have noticed it is (this subject) starting to get some sort of media attention. That being said hopefully (probably not in my life time) it will start to affect the average Joe enough that something will have to be done about it. Also if given the same amount of gas (real gas) versus an equal amount of crap gas doesn't equal the same amount of work (energy) and you then have to use more of the crap fuel to do the same, the net result is the same amount of green-house gases which I would think is the whole purpose in this idiotic chemistry game? Or is it just to fatten the wallets of a select few! Correct me if I'm wrong in this assumption!
 
The whole ethanol game is reliant on the fact that today our government schools don't bother teaching such inconvenient subjects as the Laws of Thermodyanmics.

Therefore, you can just simply ignore them when it comes to public policy, since nobody will call you on the carpet!
 
Dam . . . I guess we're SOL! I'll need to work a third job to pay for crap fuel for my boat that won't take me as far, along with new tanks to house the crap fuel, new fuel system components for my car when they no longer work and GOD knows what else . . . Anyone want a freshly painted 1971 38C? It is real nice it just needs gas . . .
 
Well,

Just contacted the state marina in my area...they are switching over to ethanol gas in one week. I guess I should get ready to be screwed, shafted, whatever the correct term is......
 
Genesis said:
The fuel gelling issue is material for operations at below-freezing temperatures. Most boaters will never run into this for obvious reasons. Land-based operations DO have issues with this, but they have those issues now as well to some extent with petroleum fuel, and they've managed to address it. How well the existing anti-gel additives work with B100 is not something I have looked into.
Click to expand...
The pour point of petro-diesel is significantly lower than bio. I've had test samples of bio (from production refiners and homemade) cloud up at 40º F. Not good for people who go cod fishing. The additives that are presently available do absolutely nothing for bio-diesel. I guess I'll have to curtail my cod fishing... oh darn!
 
Jackman, I've got a 1983 32'. Have not seen if anyone has contacted and/or received a reply from Hatteras re which year boats were made with resin resistant to ethanol. I have made our municipal marina board aware that if they provide ethanol laced fuel they should at a bare minimum post that fact on their pumps(for what benefit is debatable). At this point there is no indication Indiana is agressively going ethanol at the marina, but have heard state government is pushing hard as we (South Bend, IN) have an ethanol producing plant. It might be in interesting argument if ethanol-free fuel is available but the state mandates ethanol laced at marinas, would there be any possibility of successfully pursuing a damage suit for fuel tanks, engines, etc.?

Wonder why such silence on this issue from the marine mfgs? Maybe the numbers of affected not high enough to warrant involvement. The last time (1998) I had to replace my cockpit sole, the bill came to over $5000-now probably closer to $7,000. It might be time to consider repowering with diesels and take the hit for $30,000 difference, especially if intending to keep the boat until the grim reaper comes calling. If enough Hatt owners with gas could band together and agree on one diesl mfg, perhaps we could work a big discount from the mfg and still use the various dealers for installation. Just a thought. Going with aluminum tanks and rolling tjhe dice for 7-8 years and replacing the cockpit sole and tanks again is not very inviting-after two replacements, diesel repowering costs don't look so bad. Just my 2cts.
 
I made a call to Harbertown Marina in Merritt Island FL where we keep our boat, they knew nothing of Etho Fuel, got the number for thier gas supplier who informed me that currently they dont have etho in the fuel and do not know when it will be added. sounds like we are safe here in central FL for now but it is comming.

I do wish I had the $ to repower with Diesel. however Min cost for new power plants is 40k for 300 to 330 hp engines not to mention shafts, props,and installation etc. would cost around 60 to 80k for someone to complete the job. Can't see how that will ever be an option as i dont think the savings would ever be realized in my lifetime. Will most likely change out to EFI engines one day if it is needed and my Crusaders wear out
 
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