Polyethylene Fuel taks

[smoothmove]

Polyethylene Fuel tanks

In response to the Ethanol/FRP compatibility situation, I spent some time measuring the dimensions of the fuel tanks in my 38’ DCMY as a first step in replacing them later. They are under the single beds in the aft cabin, and not particularly accessible to measure except through a small port. - When the time comes to remove them, I can disassemble the beds to get at the tanks. I could not be absolutely certain about the size of them, but darned if it didn’t look like they might come out and go right up through the door into the salon and out. It looks pretty close but I think it can be done. Has anyone ever done this?
On a related matter, I stumbled across a polyethylene tank manufacturer in Portsmouth RI named Oceanlink . http://www.oceanlinkinc.com They have a variety of tanks sizes, and a couple of them are just about right in terms of dimensions and capacity and all compatible with E10 gasoline. Ok,so this project is looking TOO EASY. What am I not getting? . What are the opinions out there on polyethylene tanks?

 

[34Hatt]

Took a quick look at them they have a 125 gal tank and show a diagram. But they don't say anything about baffles that has been the problem with the bigger tanks. You do NOT want 100 gals of gas bouncing around with out baffles.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

smoothmove:
i have measured the tanks and they will fit out the aft and salon door on their sides. the ease of getting them out of the bunks depends on how much you are prepared to disassemble the aft bunks. i was trying to get away with disturbance to the exterior of the bunks. my plan was to cut the tops of the bunks and lift the tanks straight up. unfortunatly the tanks go under the aft wall further than you can slide them forward. that means it becomes a slide, lift and tilt operation hoping you have enough height to clear the bunk and the dresser. this doesn't take into account the weight or lack of leverage. i will probably need a plan "B".
as far as oceanlinkinc goes.
when i finally do this i will probably use them given the other options. you will probably have to re-work the fuel inlet hosing if your setup is like mine (aft corner fillers with 90 elbows to the tank fillers) i have a request in with bryan to call moeller (who make the tanks) and find out what kind of fudge factor there is with the e10 rating. i have seen test results on fuel coming from marine pumps that range from 10% - 25% ethanol. i only want to do this once.

jim

 

[Jackman]

When I was looking for a tank for my smaller boat I thought I remember seeing a place that can make the polypropylene tanks with baffles in the to whatever measurement you want. I'd have to research it because I don't have the info anymore but I thought I remember finding such a company.

What's the difference between Tempo's above and below tanks besides the color? Just curious while we're on this topic.

Jack

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

i spoke with moeller first about making custom tanks. they will make a mold for your custom tanks but it will cost you. but they seemed adverse to selling me a 150 gallon tank directly, they referred me to oceanlink.

 

[smoothmove]

Measuring ethanol in gasolin

i have seen test results on fuel coming from marine pumps that range from 10% - 25% ethanol. i only want to do this once.

jim[/QUOTE]

Wow 50 proof gasoline! No wonder there's problems. Here's a test that can help you spot who is adding the extra alcohol.


This test procedure came from the Experimental Aircraft Association website. Ironically, it takes advantage of one the properties of ethanol that make it problematic for boaters. (phase separation) The beauty of the test is that it requires only a simple graduated cylinder, a sample of gas, and a little water. The test is shown below as it came from the EEA website. FWIW, I have run several side by side tests using both the 1000mL cylinder specified by the procedure and a 100mL cylinder with appropriately prorated sample size and got EXACTLY the same value. (no surprise but good to know) I added a small amount of dye to the water in the test to improve the contrast at the water/ethanol to gasoline layer. At the completion of the test, you are left with a gasoline layer with presumably little or no alcohol. Maybe you should do this in a 55 gallon drum and throw away the water/ethanol layer! Just kidding. Don’t be offended if I say
FOR HEAVENS SAKES BE CAREFUL! and don’t do the test on your boat.

FIELD INFORMATION NO. 306
FIELD TEST FOR DETERMINING PRESENCE AND AMOUNT OF ALCOHOL IN GASOLINE
EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION, INC. (EAA) appreciates the permission of Conoco, Inc. to base this field test procedure on one developed by the company.
SCOPE
This method determines the amount, if any, of alcohol present in gasoline. This test is designed specifically for field-testing where time and simplicity are important factors.
SUMMARY OF METHOD
A sample of gasoline is shaken at room temperature with an amount of added water. The volume increase of water is proportional to the amount of alcohol initially in the fuel sample. Nine (9) parts of the gasoline sample are combined with one (1) part water.
APPARATUS REQUIRED
Graduated Cylinder Method
One (1) each one thousand milliliter (1000 ml) clear Pyrex or shatter-resistant glass graduated cylinder
Preparation
Clean Containers.
PROCEDURE

To 9 parts of gasoline (900 ml), add 100 ml of water for a total of 1000 ml in the graduated cylinder. Shake thoroughly, let stand for 10 minutes or until gasoline is again bright and clear. Record the apparent level of the line between the gasoline and water. This "Final Volume" is used in the calculation below.

NOTE: Erroneous results are probable if sample and water are not thoroughly shaken and mixed.
CALCULATION
Graduated Cylinder Method
Note the final volume and calculate the percentage of alcohol in the sample using the following calculation: Percentage of Alcohol in Gasoline = (Volume - 100 divided by 900) X 100.
Where: V = "Final Volume" of water as determined in procedure above (read at separation line between water and gasoline).
PRECISION
Within +/- 1% alcohol if you measured and recorded accurately.

PRECAUTIONARY
Gasoline is volatile, extremely flammable and harmful, or fatal if swallowed. Avoid prolonged or repeated breathing of vapor or contact with skin or eyes. If swallowed, do not induce vomiting, get medical care immediately.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

here is the latest from ethanol hell:

a fellow commisorator in my yard (67 34' conv) cut open his deck and pulled his inspection port off. i went over and stuck my hand in the tank and rubbed the underside of the tank top. i could feel stuff flaking, and my hand came back with resin chips on it. looked in the tank and the wall i could see looked just like the 2 bertram tanks i had seen. (the ones boatus took samples from) a demarcation line about halfway up the tank with the upper half looking like matting. that was it. walked over to my boat and took off the top of the port aft bunk in preparation for removal of the tank. i was all set to go with the plastic but my tanks aren't rectangles. the aft portion tapers to about 1'. this is to accomodate the steering assembly and the curvature of the stern. smoothmove i would assume you have the same setup.

 

[smoothmove]

Replacement Fuel tanks

I noticed the the odd shape of tanks but had figured on replacing it with a shorter tank that would not have the interference issues. Obviously, this will mean losing tank capacity. It's a compromise, but Great Lakes boating doesn't present as many fuel range problems as our ocean fishing brethren face.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

i conducted a little experiment of my own. in november i took 2 glasses, filled 1 with gas/ethanol and put a strip of the fuel tank in it. filled the other with gas/ethanol, forced phase separation,
and put a strip of fuel tank in it. the 2 glasses were left in my unheated garage with saran wrap laying over them to keep dust out. here is what has happened.
1- the straight fuel has discolored what was the inside of the tank strip with a white haze and the fuel has turned brownish/red which is the color of the resin.
2- the phase separated gas portion has almost entirely evaporated
leaving water and an oily layer under the what is left of the fuel. also, after phase separation occurs mixing will NOT undo it.

i am not a chemist, i only made it thru bio101 in college (a long time ago) so take this for what it's worth.

jim

 

[Jackman]

What did you do to "force phase separation"? Water and ethanol are miscible. Just curious

Did we find out yet at what year Hatteras changed the resin formulation? I was wondering if I'm effected by this..having a 1985 hull.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

kind of like the test smoothmove posted above only not nearly as accurate or scientific, i added small amounts of water and watched. from what i had read i figured sooner or later the ethanol would leetch out of the gas. i'm guessing the oily layer i have would be the ethanol.

 

[anthd]

I haven't yet heard of any definative proof with regards to boats newer then 1985, but I have a friend of mine who has a 1996 or newer 30' Skater with twin outboards and he is going through the same things we are . . . It doesn't look good for FRP tanks. Sorry for the bad news . . . I'm ready to revolt anyone else?

 

[Jackman]

FYI: A response from an email I sent to Hatteras Yachts:

Dear Mr. Seiple:

The fiberglass tanks in your yacht were made before the newer resin
formulation was available. Your tanks are susceptible to the issues
created by the use of ethanol blended fuels.

It is my understanding that BoatUS has experts looking into this issue.
I know of no quick fix or cure but continue to watch the BoatUS
technical bulletins in hopes they will find something.


Regards,
Chuck Cameron



-----Original Message-----
From: JACK SEIPLE [mailto:jrs8818@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 12:13 PM
To: Jennifer Carmen
Subject: Fuel Tank Advice

Jennifer,

I'm sure you have heard about the Ethaol/gas issues with our fiberglass
fuel
tanks. I was wondering if you could tell me what year Hatteras changed
over
the resin formulation/type? I want to know what potential problems I
may
have with y 1985 32FB (HATCF343G585). I just repowered and want to
avoid
ruining the engines and would like to have at least a bit of insight on
whether or not I should worry about this issue.

Thanks.

Jack Seiple

 

[Maynard Rupp]

I am confused. these are old carburated engines. Ethanol, (actually my experience is with methanol), burns at a ratio of about 6 parts air to one part fuel, Gasoline is about 13 to 1. Gas has twice the BTUs of Ethanol. Somwhere , as the mix higher percentages of this stuff into gasoline, the engines won't run. They are going to be way too lean. When we used to covert carburators to run on methanol, we increased the jet size a bunch. I have tried to run a carburated gasoline engine on methanol. It won't run. How can they just keep increasing the % of that stuff without starting and performance problems. Lots of other problems also. Gasoline lubricates the cylinder walls and piston rings. Methanol has no lubricating qualities. Their is more to this than the inside of the tanks.

 

[Genesis]

The newer computer-controlled engines will enrich the mixture automatically. Most will run on up to 85% ethanol.

Older engines with carbs are in for trouble..... running lean is NOT GOOD.

 

[Jackman]

I don't know what I'm going to do at this point. I have a fiberglass tank and just rebuilt both 454's and have them running excellently. Unfortunately, I'm also carbed. I feel as though I'm about to be screwed this season, the first season with Ethanol in my gas. What do I do? Not go anywhere with the boat or run it till she blows, which won't take long from what I've been hearing. How can they make such a drastic change in marine fuel without weighing the losses/effects of the change? I work in the pharma industry..we are liable and responsible for everything lately...even doctors misprescribing drugs they bought from us with explicit instructions on how it should be used. Why can't politicians and the industry be liable in a like manner or why can't exceptions be made for the types of fuel used on land versus water? We pay more for our marine fuel why can't we get what we need and how we want it. I'm gonna have to trash not only a tank, by the looks of it but also possibly a set of perfect running engines with less than 15hrs on them.

 

[Genesis]

I suspect that if you could prove the fuel blew up your motors (or tanks) you COULD INDEED go after them.......

 

[Jackman]

I am not the type to sue like a lot of people are today. My main concerns are....

1) I just put a lot of money into my boat and to have some idiot politician lobby to change fuel formulations without a massive amount of research on the effects of the change in formulation ticks me off...especially since my salary indirectly pays them for their decision making.

2) An most importantly over anything...how am I now going to feel safe and assure safety to people who come on board now that my tank and engines are supposedly being compromised. That's my main concern. Once someone's hurt its too late and to wait until someone is hurt before considering other options than ethanol I think is ludicrist....we are not guinea pigs being used to test this new ethanol gas.

The government, industry and whoever else is involved hasn't even put out a bulliten to alert people of the possible safety issues associated with this change. Maybe we'll be lucky and one of the first boats to blow will be one of the politicians who lobbied for this change...then again their probably not effected because they purchased a 110ft diesel yacht with my tax money.

Gee, this is the first time I think I've vented...hopefully I don't get kicked off this board.

 

[captddis]

Everyone is venting on all the different forums, And there is talk of ethanol in diesel later on. BoatUseless is not interested in trying to help as in their words " only a small number of boats are affected".
Venting is fine, but to get action we all need to bombard our elected officials with letters and e mails. That is the only way we stand a chance of getting action.
If any other company sold a harmful product, especially a known harmful product, they would get their butts sued .
It is my understanding that the oil companies will not run ethanol in their pipelines because it is corrosive. Therefore it is added at the point of delivery. Why can't marine fuel get a exemption and just not add the ethanol?
I shudder to think what it would cost to replace the tanks in a MY. Then the replacement is a inferior product to boot. Maybe Sky can give us some insight on what is on the horizon for diesel, and what problems there be leaving ethanol out of gas. I guess there would need to be some kind of octane booster added.
I am in the marine business and with all the events of the last few years, the future for the middle class and boat ownership do not look good.

 

[34Hatt]

Jackman
Sorry to here its coming to your neighborhood this season. I had follow your posts when you rebuilt. The one thing is you have one up on everyone this year. The thing is nobody had real problem the first season it was the spring of the following year that the S*$t hit the fan. I feel that was do to the Ethanol sitting all winter and a large dose of disolved resin mixed with the fuel. The other thing is watch down the into your manifold for the black desposits to start first sign. Nobody last spring new this and in most cases it was bent push rods or broken one's at start up.
Now the real bad news you should get by this season but guess what you need to do next winter.