Outback VFX3232M

[krush]

It may be simpler to have a dedicated 120VAC inverter and a dedicated 240VAC inverter. Depends on how much changing of the original system you are doing, though.

 

[Captain Ralph]

Just about to install our new Magnum MS-4024-PAE. Seems to offer a lot of goodies and a built in Auto Transformer. I had a great e-mail relation going on with their support heavy.
And, It is easily stack-able with the remote control/hub (I will be expanding later). Auto gen-set start - stop is another option. With my small gen-set, auto charging and allowing just my smaller state room 240Vac Air System to run, could be fun.
A second 24V alternator (21SI) has already been installed on my port main running a previous simple & Great Sterling Inverter/charger while cruising with out any gen-set running.

I always thought about the OutBack 32V equipment, just never went for it. Sorry they are dropping the 32V lines.
OTOH, Lots of Hatts out there have 48Vdc equipment, Many inverter companies do make 48V inverters. That could be an interesting install. Next fall, planning on doing it with Victron inverters and their SLI batteries in 48V on a large Hatt.

 

[Photolomy]

Yeah, the magnum is nice. I just wish it would handle 50A instead of 30A. I did actually design out using the Magnum. In the simplest case, it only requires replacing the shore/gen selector switch with shore/gen/invertor.

Btw, is the PAE model made for boats?

Essentially, I power the Magnum with one of my spare 240v breakers. When I go to inverter mode, I flip that breaker off and then change the selector to inverter. When I go back to shore or gen power, I change the selector to shore or gen and then switch the inverter breaker on.



Again, this is the simplest method. If you want the generator to be able to automatically kick on, while the inverter is still engaged, then you will need a second selector switch between the AC panel and the Magnum, that selects between panel and generator. And of course, a 30A breaker between the generator and the magnum (that second selector).

Of course, if the Magnum supported 50A, then the above simplifies to this (pass through), and all of the automated features become available ...



You would also want a 50A breaker between the selector switch and the inverter.

 

[Photolomy]

It may be simpler to have a dedicated 120VAC inverter and a dedicated 240VAC inverter. Depends on how much changing of the original system you are doing, though.

Actually, I have no real need for 240v off of a 3000w or 4000w inverter. The point of going 240v split-phase is to install it in-line (pass through) with the system. That not only alleviates the need for any switching, it also allows the use of all of the automatic features. If I wanted 240v I would start with a much larger inverter. At least 5kw and a lot more batteries. But the times I would use it versus cost doesn't add up for me.

 

[metama]

There is a used Magnum MS-4024-PAE on ebay right now from a dealer who has checked it out. I think it's around 1200. So- not a great savings. I got my Outback new but out of warranty for 800 and have 12 spare solar batteries so......

You seem set on passing through 240v, but why not just pass 120V if that is all your using, then you can run the 240 over generator and pass through the 120V. Sure it's one input to 2 outputs to passthroughs after the 110 volt selector (The most flexible way), but you should be able to do it before the selector "IF" you want to. Cuz- your still max at the same inverter watts (and passing through 50-60amps.

 

[Photolomy]

It isn't about passing through 240v, it is about passing through period (the second diagram). You can't install a 120v inverter in pass through mode on a 120/240 system. It has to be a split phase inverter and it has to have a capacity of at least 50A. The advantage is that you get to use the full functionality of the inverter, like automatic failover and automatic generator starting and stopping.

If I didn't go pass through, then I would do it like my first diagram, which is simple to wire, and you only need to replace the selector switch. You can do a 120v inverter in my first diagram, just have to wire it to a spare 120v breaker instead of a spare 240v breaker. You may be limited in how much charging current you can deliver in that fashion.

 

[Photolomy]

That is a decent deal on Ebay, the unit looks good. Unfortunately, no warranty at all.

 

[metama]

You can completely run the 120V as a pass through(as many people here have).

A number of way including the diagram I posted. The 110 all go's through the 110 source selector switch. You put your inverter after it, you charge your inverter by any source, you put it before you can only use what come out of the 220V. And..... That lots of people used to do is feed it of a breaker on the 32v/110v/240v panel. So may ways to make that go wrong. Especially with a 240v inverter. Can't feed itself!

Dive into the AC panel wiring. I posted a phone for the '77. Not sure when they made the panel changes. By 83 (I think).

The Pacific Systems guy has some nice youtube and system diagrams.

 

[Photolomy]

That isn't pass through. Pass through is where the entire shore and gen power sources pass through the inverter. That is how these inverters are designed to be wired, and how you get to use the fail over features.

 

[metama]

It could just be short hand but it looks like some of you diagrams show a short circuit?

On at least the '77 and earlier the 240V source selector switch feeds the 240V circuits and the two 110V Source selectors I think it is similar on early 80 boats as well and changed in 83? Or is it 78 that they make the panel change?

 

[Photolomy]

In the first diagram, the selector is either feeding from shore, gen or inverter, exclusively. BEFORE you switch it to inverter, you turn the inverter breaker OFF. AFTER you switch it to gen or shore, you turn the inverter breaker ON.

So, you are wiring the 120v inverter inline with either S1 or S2?

Does that mean one leg is fed through the inverter and the other not fed?

Doesn't that limit you to 30A, and how can you have the inverter and the shore power on at the same time?

I am familiar with the S1/S2 switches.

 

[metama]

If you say so

Reads as a 120V pass through to me unless you turn on the bi-pass for each panel section. Then again, your paths looks like a fire to me, so I guess there must be a subjective flow of electricity.

 

[metama]

Im just going to feed the inverter from one leg (any power source I want but just one). It passes through 60A and inverts 30A + charging (if memory serves me correctly). I have a 3,500+ system that peaks up to 5500ish. Because the wonderfully crazy way my boat is wired I can choose if I want both panels on passthrough/Invert, one on, one off. 1/2 generator, 1/2 inverter or both off.

If you want to spend money, it would be better to have a 2 inverters. I assume with 2 3000+ inverters you wouldn't be able to over draw it with everything on. Give the option I would use 2 120 inverter and that way if you somewhere without 240V shore power your still charging and supplementing any short comings of that low dock source.

But.... unless your inverter can handle the watts your not really gaining anything.

Its basically like hooking up to 120 shore power. Works out to about the same max watts as well.

 

[Photolomy]

When I looked at the outback inverters, they were all limited to 30A. Which model do you have?

http://outbackpower.com/downloads/d...m_series/m_series_mobile_marine_specsheet.pdf

I also just got back from the Magnum people that the Magnum-PAE is not certified for use in a boat.

"The PAE is not designed to be installed in a boat as it is not UL458 listed. I would recommend if you need 120/240VAC output, going with a dual stack MS4024 system. This would allow for neutral-to-ground bond switching which is required in a mobile application such as yours, and still give you the 120/240VAC output that you need. The pass through capability of any of the MS series that you’re looking at is 30A per leg, so if needed, you could jump the input and output of each MS4024 to allow for a total of 60A pass through per inverter. Essentially, on MS4024 would be on L1 and the other MS4024 would be on L2. I have attached our Series Stacking Interface manual (which is what you would need to stack the MS4024s together) so you can see what I’m describing. I hope this helps!"

And also just got back from the Victron people that that the 100A autotransformer is actually 32A continuous. So that points to the stacking option as well.

"Your power demands may exceed the capability of the Victron autotransformer. You have to read the small print on the specification but although it can handle 100 amps the maximum load imbalance allowed between the legs is 32 amps. There are other models of autotransformers by other manufacturers that may be able to do what you want."

 

[Photolomy]

"But.... unless your inverter can handle the watts your not really gaining anything."

That isn't the point. The point is to have the inverter inline with the whole system. Both legs on it, and no manual switching, other than the normal Gen versus Shore. I can't put an inverter of less than 50A inline because I need at least 50A normally, and I can't have both legs on it (always) unless it is split phase.

Keep in mind I am assuming not rewiring the breaker panel.

If you rewired the breaker panel, and create a sub panel for just the inverter stuff, then you can achieve the same thing. You don't have to switch anything, other then Shore or Gen, and the rest is all automatic. And this option is actually not that crazy, because the panel parts are not that expensive and comparable to adding a second (stacked) inverter.

 

[metama]

I have not successfully confirmed the 60Amp pass through with the outback. I have one of the FX3524 models. In some of my paper manual info it references 60Amp for generator input and AC wiring.

I haven't tried hard, maybe sent one email and didn't get through on the right service hours to get a human on the phone.

So- I am fairly certain 30amp on invert.
Not sure, but it looks like charge power can be in addition to that? It's conflicting info.

I believe what we need to determine is the auto transfer switch pass-through amount.
See the attached images for "possible" support of 60amp pass-through.

Im on engines and then analog to NMEA2000 gauges before I get back to inverter work. So I am working of this winters research.

 

[Photolomy]

Not sure if you saw my thread on the gauges...

https://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?33174-Digital-Gauges&highlight=digital+gauges

I hope to bring in the inverter stats also, when I decide on which inverter.

 

[Captain Ralph]

Yeah, the magnum is nice. I just wish it would handle 50A instead of 30A.

Stackable to 17.5kw.

Btw, is the PAE model made for boats?

In the simplest case, it only requires replacing the shore/gen selector switch with shore/gen/invertor.

You answered your own question. If your using a new selector switch, a forth contact in it will manually settle the green wire issue on shore to hull fault current.
All else, All Magnams are sealed the same.
The PAEs are special.
Sadly, the PDF data sheet is to large to upload.

 

[Boatsb]

Dont know where the 32 amp info on the 100 amp auto transformer came from but the true spec is


100 amps pass through with a limit of imbalance of 32 amps. That means the difference in draw from the 2 sides can not exceed 32 amps. So if you have 50 amps on one leg and 20 on the other its fine. The imbalance goes to the neutral tap and that's limited to the 32 amps.

Too much misinformation is bad.

 

[metama]

Yep- You are probably to blame for the NMEA 2000 data project. Great job, I wanted to do this but it never sank in that most of that data is all ready up to the helm. I am going Chetco, he is also putting in resistors into the devise for me to get the 32V alarm info in.

Silly Side question (and I sure I will have more when I get to it).... what is sending all the alarm info? Are the temp alarms pulling off of senders that send full data/resistance or are they just alarms sensors that close at a certain value. In other words is the temp alarm pulling from a temp sensor reporting a range of temp.

I have to replace my tachs sends and 2 volt gauges. I have 3 (per engine) sets of manual pressure gauges that I want to have on both NMEA 2000 and existing manual gauges.
I also want to try to put a single water sensor in to monitor all three tanks. My Watermaker uses one. The part is 150.00 and measure the pressure between the pump and the tank. Given that I can't get the broken gauges off my water tanks it sounds great to me! I also don't want to buy 7 fluid senders.