Outback VFX3232M

[Photolomy]

My issue with LiFePo is that I will not use them enough and they will die of old age long before I get close to using the cycles. If I was using the inverter a lot, they would make more sense.

 

[Pascal]

The two legs in your panel are each fed from a single line of 240v to neutral. In order to keep this functioning you will need a 240v inverter and use a 120v transformer to "create" the neutral leg. this will be complicated especially if you already have an isolation transformer on board doing the same thing. Alternately you could relocate the circuits you want on the inverter to one leg of the 240v and feed just that leg with 120v from the inverter.

There are tons of options and all seem to be compromise.

Not true. An inverter with dual inputs and outputs like the Magnum will take each 120v Legs and pass thru or output to Each legs of the panel. The only thing you won’t have is 240v service

 

[Boatsb]

Never seen one like that.

The Victron quattro has 2 inputs. 1 will prioritize. If it's not powered it will look at the second input.
The 2 outputs are 1 pass through only when powered and another with invert / pass through.

If you dont understand the inputs think of them as ship(dock power) and genny(ships power) on an automatic switch.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Not true. An inverter with dual inputs and outputs like the Magnum will take each 120v Legs and pass thru or output to Each legs of the panel. The only thing you won’t have is 240v service

Or...........Just treat it like a second generator and forget the pass through. Then you can feed everything in the boat and don't have to choose which circuits are on the inverter. It will require manual switching but that's not a big deal when all of the switching is right there in the pilothouse.

 

[Pascal]

When I re install an inverter on my boat that’s how i will hook it up

 

[sixty]

Not true. An inverter with dual inputs and outputs like the Magnum will take each 120v Legs and pass thru or output to Each legs of the panel. The only thing you won’t have is 240v service

I wasn't aware magnum had a model that had dual pass through. I find it a litte ofd that they didn't take the simple next step and split phase the inverter to proved 240/120 but im sure it makes sense. I have a magnum on my 36' sedan amd it has been great.With modern technology there are tons of options out there. Im hoping LiFePo technology gets much cheaper in the future.

 

[Photolomy]

Or...........Just treat it like a second generator and forget the pass through. Then you can feed everything in the boat and don't have to choose which circuits are on the inverter. It will require manual switching but that's not a big deal when all of the switching is right there in the pilothouse.

That is my plan. The passthrough isn't enough amps to use. And we turn things off anyways, when we unhook from shore power, so that doesn't matter to us.

Regarding the legs, I may just move the fridge to the other side, then I think I am covered.

Here are a couple options with two inverters or one (240v) inverter and an auto transformer.

https://shop.pkys.com/split-phase-inverter.html

I think of those two options, I prefer the two inverter option. The cost is about the same, and even though it isn't load balanced, that doesn't really matter since I will have 3000w on each leg anyways, which is all I am sizing the batteries for. And I could later increase the battery capacity.

Finally, and I need to check this throughly, when not connected to gen or shore power, the two legs are independent. Thus, I could probably connect both to one inverter and then not have to move any loads between the two sides.

 

[Photolomy]

Not true. An inverter with dual inputs and outputs like the Magnum will take each 120v Legs and pass thru or output to Each legs of the panel. The only thing you won’t have is 240v service

Do you know which Magnum does this? The PAE series does split phase for both the passthrough and the inverter, but can it be used in a boat?

64-0032 Rev C | MS-PAE Series Owners Manual

You can see a diagram on page 7.

Sorry, the MS series does exactly as you say...

4-0007 Rev F MS Series

 

[Pascal]

Yes MS 4024 which has automatic N to G bonding in inverter mode but disconnects the bonding when connected to a power source. This is a must on a boat which is why off grid inverters should not be used

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Regarding the legs, I may just move the fridge to the other side, then I think I am covered.

No need to move it. You can power both legs with when set up as a separate input source. You just can't use any of the 240v loads.

 

[metama]

Below is the original Panel blueprint for my 1977 53' MY if it help anyone.
It is a very flexible although expensive circuit path.

Im working on the map for my new 24V outback inverter with it's own battery bank.
WIP! (I wasn't expecting it to be up for public scrutiny. Lots of shortcuts!) PNG attached. Linked below is the source document if you want to make a copy to modify.

https://app.diagrams "at" net/?src=about#G1kF54wmIZcILLmci3IDJJb2dqZEymy7f1

Not sure yet if I am going to put in a non-protected rotary selector (as mapped) or use breakers to make a manual transfer switch between Bi-pass and Invert/Passthrough. It's either 2 rotary selectors [Inverter/Passthrough] [Off] [Bi-Pass] or 8 breakers with a manual transfer lock. Plus 60A breakers feeding the inverter regardless. Yes, Im only powering the 110V inverter with one of the 110V legs. It's so flexible to route shore power source it doesn't matter. I think the bi-pass is required as I can only pass through 60amps and it is only 3,500 inverting. My generator makes 70amps (But looks like more). With the setup I currently have mapped I can manage load via the 110 breakers, shut off 1/2, support a low amp shore power with additional power... anything that is 110.

Of interest the dead 32V inverter I am replacing was setup on an auto transfer switch with the Generator. I don't know it's history (PO) but it looks like the Generator could never charge the inverter. And-- not sure the AC source of the broken inverter. It is routed to a light switch in the galley and maybe back fed? Ill find out when I pull it!




View attachment 40985

 

[metama]

Looks like PNG and PDF will not post.
Jpeg attached.

 

[Photolomy]

Thanks for the info. After the valuable input here and a lot of research, I think I am going to wire the inverter after the switches altogether, in passthrough mode. I will use a Victron 230v Inverter tied to a Victron Autotransformer and wire that right to the AC panel. the Shore/Gen switch will feed the inverter, the inverter will feed the autotransformer, and the autotransformer will feed the AC panel. It limits me to 50A (at 240v) but our generator maxes out at 70A (240v) and we have only blown the 50A dock breaker once since we have had the boat, and I think my wife had everything on when that happened. 4 AC, Stove, Dishwasher (water heater probably kicked on).

The advantage of this is that I basically can just wire it in. No extra switches, just a 50A circuit breaker feeding the Inverter. I can use shore or gen as usual (up to 50A). And, I can use the UPS feature so that when there are power outages at the boat while I am not there, the inverter takes over (I don't leave things like AC on when I leave the boat). I can also have the generator automatically start when the inverter gets low. I can even have (limited) 240v.

As far as wiring it in, I simply bring the current feed into the AC panel, down to a 50A breaker in the generator room, to the inverter, to the auto transformer and then back up to the AC panel. I'll mount the inverter remote control next to the generator remote control at the helm.

Cost (of both the inverter and transformer) is only a few hundred more than the Magnum 4024, which was also a consideration. Unfortunately, the Magnum topped out at 30A, while the Victron 230v unit went up to 50A.

Note: There is a software option that changes the Victron from 230V/50Hz to 240v/60Hz.

I will go with the 24v system and 4 x 200AH (12v) (Renogy). I thought about the 12v system, because I also have all my electronics and network on 12v, but then realized that the Victron had a second charging port for starter batteries. So I will keep my 12v batteries for the generator starter/electronics and charge them via the Victron.

Also, maybe the autotransformer will step up 208v to 240, if I come across such a dock? I don't know, I didn't actually look into that. It just came to my mind. (Edit: I looked into this, that is not its function).

I still need to study the grounding requirements for this.

 

[metama]

Pretty similar to what I am doing except without a bi-pass and the 220/240V.


Given that the PO's inverter is dead, I don't want to skip a bi-pass. And... with only 120 on the single outback, I though some routing flexibility on the two 120 sides would be nice.


In your research check out the pass-through rating vs the charge rating vs the inverter amps.
On the outbacks (most of the big ones), allow 60Amp pass through, but I "Think" it takes away the charge volts (this is changeable in the settings). The Magnus typically have 2 inputs, not sure of pass through.

 

[Photolomy]

Well, the outback isn't split phase, so no chance of just wiring it in or using passthrough, and then I have to have a bunch of switches to manage in order to charge it, decide which leg to wire it to, etc. With a split phase approach I just wire it straight in line. No changes at all to the current system. And it is load balancing, so I don't have to worry which leg a light or receptacle is on, just as long as the total power is under the 3000w. And it is all automatic. A Victron inverter and autotransformer is about $2k.

Good point about adding a bypass switch incase the inverter dies.

This is basically all there is to it...

 

[SKYCHENEY]

The transformer is a parasitic load on the inverter. You probably don't want that passing through the transformer. A generator doesn't go through the transformer.

Like I said before, you can wire it just like a second genny. Both phases can be powered by the single phase from the inverter. You just won't have any 240v loads that will operate. And the charge function can just be powered by its own breaker when on shore power. Add a relay so you don't accidentally feed power to it from itself when on inverter since you'll have the whole panel energized.

 

[Photolomy]

The autotransformer is actually built for this application. Another approach is using two (stacked) inverters, no auto transformer. Either way, you get all the advantages of using these in passthrough mode, avoiding switches and relays, and it will be automatic. I am not sure why I would want to make this more complex and less effective for a few hundred dollars. I guess maybe if the choice was to use my starting batteries, but that isn't on the table now. A pair of Victrons is $2500, If I go stacked approach. The only downside is that a week after I install it, Victron will come out with a split phase inverter.

 

[Photolomy]

The bottom line is that all of these inverters, Outback included, were designed to be used in a pass through mode. That is when all of their features become available. The problem with us using them with our boats is that our system is 240v split phased and our generators are generally larger than our shore power. Yes, there are ways to work a 120v inverter into all of that, with switches and relays. But, if you can use the inverters as they were designed, in a true pass through manner, and avoid all of that hobbling, why not?

 

[metama]

Absolutely running the inverters pass-through is the way to go.


Most of the bigger inverters will pass through more than they can supply on there own. They also clean up the power cover dips and short spikes. I was looking at the options and they even have settings to ride out generator inconsistency. If you dare, it tempting to have them start up the generator. You can even say if its between 9AM-6PM start the generator when power dips and not have the Generator kick on at 2AM.


Going Victron may also feed in some NMEA 2000 data out. They finally started to add that stuff in. Raymarine has some apps for there power management... Could be nice as I was hoping to find a way to feed Outback data to the network so I can have all my remote management and power tracked from anywhere and together. OK - analog engine and sensor data is next up after I paint the engine, or maybe after a few other projects like the stairs and.....


BUT- If you look at your Hatteras panel routing it pretty well done, if overly redundant and expensive to match. Having 220-240V doesn't really help you unless you need to run 220-240V resources. For me, that is the washer and dry. (I have a 77) Even my stove is now 120V.

Ya- Im setting up a bypass selector switch so that each 120V panel can get bi-passed or inverter power. But if you never hit bi-pass it's alway there just like you describe. You should have a 50 or 60a input breaker to your inverter regardless.


Now you need the AMP's / watts but it doesn't really matter if it on 120 or 240 except for 240 appliances (Like some AC and W/D). Putting your 240v invert between the 240v source selector switch and the two 120V source selector isn't really any more or less hobbling. You require (should have) two legs of breakers into the inverter and bi-pass. With an 110 only system, you get to pick 1/2 to be on an inverter and 1/2 from the source selector if you want. With a 240 you still have the 120 getting split to 2 panels. I guess the advantage there is that your legs can't (or shouldn't) get out of phase once it is set up correctly. I wouldn't want an extra transformer making heat and sucking power.


I could see the advantage of 2 stacked or split phase inverters. It would offer nice redundancy.

I would look at Magnum and Vicrom in addition to Outback.

What every you do-- document it and put it in your book!

 

[Photolomy]

The 240v inverter isn't split phase, it is pure 240v. Actually, it is 230v out of the box, for EU applications (they are pure 230v, not split phase like us). The autotransformer converts it to split phase.