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Outback 3232 is going to happen!

aquacraig@shaw.ca

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
243
Status
  1. OWNER - I own a Hatteras Yacht
Hatteras Model
53' MOTOR YACHT (1969 - 1988)
Totally fed up with my old "protech" 32 volt 18 amp charger and "heart interface" inverter so am going to bight the bullet and spend the bucks on an "Outback". My question(s) is(are), the protech only put out 18 amps so should I upgrade the charging wires, and second, what do I do about charging "house" vs "starting" banks? From what I understand, the "outback" is a single bank style charger. Advice truly appreciated as this is alot of money

Thanx
Craig
 
It'll be in the manual but the folks at Outback can help you with installation and set up questions in addition to the many happy Outback owners here. But why not upsize with new cabling while you are at it? Can't hurt, plus in many big Hatt MYs, the charger is not in the ER with the house bank. Consider leaving the old charger if it's not broken connected to the primarily starting bank and have the Outback charge it's house bank. I am not too big on the idea of turning everything into one big bank charged by the Outback, which risks the inverter drawing everything down. I am sure MikeP will weigh in with his counter-argument.

Off topic: Personally, I decided to put the inverter on it's own 24v bank, which has its pros and cons, the biggest con, due solely to my procrastination (driven by "I've gotten away with it like this for four years") is I have not added a 24 volt alternator to charge that bank while underway, which puts more pressure on the generator as a single point of failure, which is no small matter. The pros were: no chance of drawing down the house/port engine starting bank, ability to install Magnum's 4000 watt 24v inverter and associate system components (excellent remote, auto-gen-start, battery monitoring kit all integrated) and more commonly available true deep cycle 6 volt batteries, such as the 410 AH L16's I use.
 
That's an interesting idea about leaving the old charger tied to the port starting bank and using the outback purely for house. I suppose I could always parallel to charge starting bats if old charger didn't stand up?
Craig
 
As noted, I am a fan of combining the battery banks so as to have one large bank as opposed to the oem two separate banks. BUT there is one caveat:

It is theoretically POSSIBLE to drain the banks so that you can't start a main. I say theoretical because in the 5+ years we have had the Outback that has never happened and hasn't even come close to happening. In one case, the boat was on the hard for 72 hours with the outback powering the fridge. When put back in the water the engines cranked/started instantly with no hesitation at all. However, because it is possible, I would recommend that if your genny is the original or a replacement that uses a 32v starter motor, you leave the banks separate as per oem. Yes, charging both banks might be an issue. But more later on that.

If you have newer genny with a 12v starter and the associated 12v batt(s) to start it, then the possibility of not being able to start a main becomes not much of an issue because you can always start the genny and charge the main batts. Again, this has never been an issue for us and we anchor out; we virtually never stay at marinas. The main batts/inverter easily supply the load needed overnight and have yet to be less than 80% charged in the morning. That includes running the usual stuff - Fridge, sat TV, hair dryer, coffee maker, microwave, stereo, whatever.

If you choose to combine the banks, I recommend a battery switch so you can combine/decombine if you wish. I have never decombined them but I think it's a good idea to be able to. If you decombine, then you are back to the oem setup EXCEPT, as I mentioned earlier, the Outback will only be charging one bank (set it up to charge the oem house bank when decombined). But that's not a big deal in the operational scheme of things while cruising since the start bank will have no load on it. All it has to do is start the engines and, with no outgoing load with the engines off, there is nothing to deplete the batts. Then, just like your car, after starting the engines the alternators recharge the batts for the start bank. Back at the marina and on shore power, combine the banks for extended absences so the Outback will keep all batts in good condition.

I have yet to find the slightest down-side operationally to combining the banks and, per Calder, one large bank is more efficient than the two smaller banks. But again, I realize that some folks are not comfortable with the idea that you could possibly deplete the main batts and be left without the ability to start them.

Another issue with the outback is whether to utilize the "pass through" circuitry or not. I think it's great; others prefer not to use it. One possible downside with using the pass-through is that it is limited to 30A @ 120VAC. That 30A is the total that can be utilized, including battery charging. What that means is that if, for example, you are running 15 amps of normal household loads - whatever they might be - AND the charger wants to apply a full charge load to the batts, the maximum that can be applied to the charger will be 15A. THe charger output is reduced as necessary based on other loads. So if you were pulling 25A of other loads, the charger could only get 5A. (The most the charger will use by default is 19A.)

In reality, this has never been an issue. Remember, we are talking Amps at 120vac. The charging amps delivered to the 32v batts is much higher than the original Ferro charger could deliver and, in fact, the Outback can recharge the batts in 1/3 the time that our old Ferro charger could with the batts at the same discharge level.

One more item to be aware of re the pass through - you could set it up to provide power to all 120vac loads. But now the 30A pass thru could easily be a problem, especially at the dock. 30A is not much when you consider everything that could possibly be on at the same time. So a better way is to select particular circuits and have the inverter/pass-thru provide power to them ONLY. In our boat, I selected the circuits that power: the fridge, the microwave and coffeemaker the davit, the upper starboard salon plugs (TV, stereo, etc) the Cablemaster, and one outlet in the master stateroom (tv, hairdryer if needed). It's easy to split the circuits out in the elec panel BUT it does require setting up a separate ground buss for the circuits supplied by the inverter and isolating the existing breakers for the particular circuits so they are powered by the inverter, NOT by the normal hot buss in the panel. It's NOT difficult at all, though it may sound that way. ;)

All the parameters of the Outback are remotely adjustable with the addition of the "Mate" remote unit. Be sure to purchase that option. If you don't, you will regret it later. I went without it for a year and it was stupid. The mate allows you to use all the capabilities of the inverter and to change literally every setting imaginable to fit your specific needs.
 
Based on MikeP's recommendation, I put in a switch to combine my battery banks. Now I can charge and/or invert from either or both banks with the Outback. I still have my Analytic charger, so that can charge either bank as well.

I find myself inverting from one bank and then switching to the other bank the next day. This way even if the charging time is insufficient, I have a fully charged bank to invert off of.

I'm not too concerned with running the banks too low as I have a 12v start on my generator and the Outback is set to only discharge 50% anyway. I've never had a problem starting the engines even after the inverter has shut off due to low voltage.
 
Mike, This is excellent info but I am a bit confused about the "pass through". My Heart is currently wired to run fridge, galley outlets, some 110 lights etc. and is active by turning off shore/genny power and turning inverter on. I think you're talking about this but also the amperage draw of the outback?
I have an Onan 32volt start genny and a backup 12volt start Panda so I could always run it if I depleted the 32 volt combined banks. I really would like to get rid of all the old stuff so your solution would meet my desires nicely!
Craig
 
Craig, if you already have circuits split out to run from the inverter then essentially all you would have to do is remove the current inverter and re connect the outback in it's place. There is no need for off/on switches, relays, or anything like that. Connected as "pass-thru" the inverter takes over the load immediately anytime shore/genny power is not available. There's not even a "blink" from the flat screen TV when the shore (or genny) power is disconnected.

Via the mate you can select an option for the inverter to not pick up the load. I select inverter "off" when the boat is unattended for long periods but when I'm there, the inverter is always "on." Whether the inverter is "on" or "off" has no affect on pass through circuitry. Turning the inverter off just means that if shore or genny power is not available, the inverter will not pull power from the batts to keep the particular circuits live.

The actual amperage draw to run the outback is minimal if it is not charging. The pass through circuit is just that - 30A being supplied to the inverter by the 120vac circuit panel and simply passing through it on to whatever it is wired to. The mate will show how many amps are being used by/through the inverter at any one time. Normally, with the TV or stereo running and no charging taking place it's 1A. Turn on the microwave and it's 15. With nothing running, the mate shows 0 amps.
 
I do not use the pass-thru at all. I have the Outback wired as another source at the main distribution panal, just like an extra generator.
 
Despite my enthusiasm for the way I have my Outback set up - where it's essentially invisible in normal operation - Sky's method has the advantage that IF the inverter catastrophically fails, you don't lose the circuits that were connected to the pass through. It also doesn't impose any "artificial" limitation on current draw.

OTOH, it's a 10 minute job to get into the panel and wire a jumper wire to reconnect the breakers that were powered by the inverter to the master hot buss. Then the system is back to "original" as wired by Hatt. But it's worth repeating to be sure that it's clear:

1. the circuits connected to the inverter pass thru won't work if the inverter fails.
2. If the the total power demand on the pass-through circuit is more than 30A, the 30A breaker that supplies the ac power to the inverter will trip. A microwave on high, a 1500+W hair dryer, and a coffee maker all turned on at the same time will exceed 30A. We have never had the 30A breaker trip but depending on how you set things up, it's possible.
 
The only reason I wired without the pass thru was because I wanted to energize every 120v circuit on the boat. That way you can turn on any light or use any plug without issue.

Both methods have their pro/cons, but for us, treating it as a separate power source has worked out well.
 
I used the pass thru also and rearranged breakers and wiring in electrical panel so only lights, outlets, and fridge go can run on inverter. If you have kids on boat and use the TV and DVD player as a babysitter while getting things in order before unplugging from the dock it’s great. You can use flip the rotary switch from Shore Power to Off and not lose a beat as inverter switches over that quick (the TV and DVD never turns off, completely seamless). That's my number 1 argument for using pass thru. Up your alternator size on your mains appropriately and no more generator unless at extended anchorage.

Regarding wiring, I put in a 12 volt Xantrex Pro-Sine 2000 Watt inverter a few years back. Installation instructions called for 2 sizes bigger then 4 ought - it was locomotive size wire! I posted about this here at the time and got all kinds of advice - basically to go smaller, manufacturer didn't know what they were talking about etc (expurt advice). I eventually called Xantrex and due to differences in way ABYC rates max ampacity on wires they had to recommend the locomotive size wire (which I could not find tinned anywhere). They said 4 ought would be fine (still huge, but I'm 12 volts), it was mostly sized for the initial start-up of inverter - apparently a big surge with lots of impedance if I remember correctly. Short and skinny, I would call manufacturer and take their advice mano y mano if you don't believe the wire size in manual. Buy a heavy duty professional grade crimper ($300) if you do DC wiring yourself - best advice I can give.

One other thing just popped into my mind - when they give the wire size recomendation in the manual based on length - that's the total length to and from the battery (pos wire and neg wire). So if they say 2/0 for 30' run, that means inverter is 15' from battery.
 
Thanx Guys, Excellent discussion on just what to do. I will inspect circuits this weekend and probably mirror my existing set-up with the old stuff/ new outback. I do like the idea of using both banks and charging as one source. One of my boating neighbours installs outbacks for solar houses etc. so he is going to have a look as well. Trouble is...he runs a blow boat and thinks I need solar....with 2 gennies and 8v71Ti's I think NOT.
Craig
 
FWIW, Outback was a premium off-grid inverter and I learned more about inverters from those guys (solar/wind/local water power) than from any other source. That's where I first heard of the 3232 Outback. Oddly enough, 32V is fairly common in the solar/wind power world.
 
A tech from EA was hoping to visit this weekend past, as his boat is moored across the fairway, but wasn't able to make it. Very dissapointing as I want his advice and need to get this event happening! Will let you know what the outcome is once we connect.
Craig
 
The first question, "so should I upgrade the charging wires?", seems not to have been answered directly. The Outback 3232 has an adjustable charger output with a max value of 20A AC. Factoring in conversion loss and voltage variance this comes out around 70-75A at 32V. This would call for a wiring upgade unless you wanted to "dial back" the output.
 
Well, that would depend on the size of the oem charging wires and the distance involved. In our 53MY the oem charger was located in the star eng room. THe outback is located in the genny/batt area, less than a foot away from one of the banks. In our case, the oem wiring was plenty large enough considering the dramatic reduction in distance. So you just have to do the distance/wire gauge/power math.
 
I went with 2/0 cables from the Outback to the battery bank. Its not only the charging but also the inverting that will be drawing big amps through those wires. 3200 watts of A/C will take about 90 amps of 32v to produce.
 

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