Oil Analysis lessons

[Boatsb]

So. With all the issues you found you still have no answer. If the buyer wants to buy it he should being in his guy. A plane ticket for a mechanic will not destroy the economy of a good deal.

If the seller wants to sell it and sees a problem he should do something. Even if it's a bank or an estate.

Bring some common sense to the deal.

 

[lumina]

Hi All,

Come on guys, let's play nice and play with respect........we're all here to learn, support each other and enjoy the gifts and comradery of the forum.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Fischer Panda generator overheating?

Hmmm. These are cooled by seawater. This is why they are so quiet. They may be the least reliable marine gensets on the market. I'd worry.

Fortunately, there's also an Onan on board...

One oil analysis seems to me like one frame of a very expensive movie. You have to buy and watch the entire film to figure out what's going on. And then it turns out you could have just bought the Cliff Notes version and known the ending for a lot less time and money.

 

[Finalee]

"Knowing this information warrants further investigation to prevent possible cataclysmic failure of the engine..."

OMG!!!....Ahhhh...PUH-LEASE go lightly with words like "cataclysmic" [or "catastrophic".....] I am getting older every day and may be subject to heart palpatations with such language. I already told the propsective buyer
"This boat is really cool, I may not speak to you again if you don't get it."

"....how does it run? Will it start up from cold? How does it behave? How did it sea trial? Did it make RPM's and proper oil pressure (hopefully on a mechanical gauge) and not overheat? Is there something special about this particular boat or deal that has so far prevented the buyer from running away screaming? Inquiring minds want to know.

Stb ran fine, except for low idle RPM and some stalls as a result. A few days earlier started for haul out faster than my old 8V71TI's.... turned up 2400 RPM under load on sea trial, same as port engine [which had all good oil analysis] vs rated RPM of 2600...all gauge readings and manual survey temperature readings were normal. Buyer has negotiated so far to 40% of asking price based on poor electric, equipment not working and general condition as well as knowledge of prior offers. 30KW ONAN and 11KW Fischer Panda have excellent oil analyses....latter overheats, likely a simple issue....Interior quite good,fit and finish and teak trim and cabinetry exquisaite. Notches above my Hatt. Aluminum hull excellent based on 250 ultasounds and recent topside awlgrip....

Ques remains is the boat even worth 40%....barely, if at all, in my opinion.

Requires somebody with the patience and affection to restore it. Like you nuts!
25%-maybe 30% of asking price?? and there may well be a deal. Awaiting seller reply about engine SEVERE tests. Owner deceased; family seller almost certainly in shock; knows nothing about boats.

"...Are you going to interpret that sample as a correct indicator of the engine condition and do a complete teardown/rebuild since that is what the oil sample results would require (rings/cyl walls/bearings)?.."

I'm not there yet....but my friend the buyer may be. Unsure of ferrography interpretations yet.I decided to post about this saga....because of all the uncertainties associated with a used/unused boat....and all the issues which are discussed in these forums year after year.

As I suspected at the start, this is unfolding as an interesting case study. I suspect the prospective buyer will have a Cummins mechanic come down and do a more detailed engine survey.

"As you noted earlier, issues with head gaskets/coolant/raw water intrusion can be easily diagnosed with various mechanical tests - leak down, etc.."

Personally, I'd buy a pressure testing pump gizmo, pressure test the cooling system via the expansion tank and see if it holds 5-7 lbs pressure...what, maybe 5 -10 minutes?? If it doesn't, then test the heat exchanger, oil cooler, individually.....I'd change the oil and run both engines fivehours or so to the repair facility; test the oil again.... but then it's not my $$ at stake....
to be continued....

I for one appreciate your sharing this due diligence taking place. It would be interesting to know weather or not the engine could hold together in a 30 minute Detroit Diesel WOT test.

 

[REBrueckner]

"Fischer Panda generator overheating? Hmmm. These are cooled by seawater...

This one has a heat exchanger.....I tested the PH of the antifreeze myself.
Apparently it was the smaller models that had issues according to the surveyor..and I remember some mention in the forums here some years ago. Could be something as simple as a kinked hose....The Panda generator has quite low hours....is fairly recent......Somewhere the surveyor reported them....I found kinked hoses in several other places in the engine room.

"...know weather or not the engine could hold together in a 30 minute Detroit Diesel WOT
test..."

We ran both engines at WOT, 2400 RPM vs 2600 rated RPM, for about 15 minutes. Both engines were fine despite being protected to - 70 F....too much antifreeze, way over 50/50.

....Surveyor was in the engine room recording all normal temperature readings on both engines via infra red thermometer, mechanical RPM readings, and I'm not sure what other stuff. I was monitoring engine gauges at both helms and all was normal on the electric helm instruments.

There is also an engine oil analysis from 2004 that showed the other [port] engine high in
sodium...yet we have no record of any work other than an oil change...and it was fine this
time. I do not like such coincidences.

Part of the 'fun' [really, more like agony] of this pursuit is that the sellers are really molasses slow in any and all responses......

The different viewpoints expressed in different responses so far suggest that everyone may not proceed in quite the same way. The plot will conclude with either the buyer or seller walking away...or an agreement will be reached.

 

[REBrueckner]

10/13 conversation with a different 'analysis' guy at the oil analysis lab.

Here is what the ferrography report said:

"Suggest flushing the system. Suggest inspecting this unit for excessive wear and/or pitting. Severe red oxide [rust] contamination is likely from a heavy water contamination source- judging by the high Na content it is suspected to be a salt water contamination source but this is speculation. SEVERE amount of ferrous rubbing wear. Excessive rubbing wear results when abrasive particles [silica/dirt and environmental contaminats] are present....and cause component wear. Significant amount of cutting wear particles, which is the result of excessive abrasive particles. Significant amount of lead/tin alloy., likely from bearing wear. Moderate amount of fatigue wear. Fatigue wear is not common for diesel engines, and may indicate cam/roller rocker wear or oil pump wear. Moderate amount of copper alloy particles.

my e-mail to the prospective buyer summarizing my discussion with Lab guy#2:

"Lab analysis guy says that with the engine having sat virtually unused for three or more
years, in a moist marine environment, rust and temporary wear from the start up and running is a possibility. He sees LOTS of iron oxide, rust, in the ferrography report and agreed it could possibly be cylinder wall 'rust' ...from the engine sitting unused.....and maybe not a serious permanent and fatal engine flaw. Or it might be.

He sees a lot of oxide in the ferrography report, and that could contribute to rubbing,cutting,ferrous, abrasive and red oxides in the report. So these may have a rather common source.

His recommendation: change the oil, get 5 or 10 hours on the new oil, and
get another analysis. [I'm in this camp.]

It is also a possibility that the analysis results demonstrate an engine 'on it's way out' ...
he can't make such a distinction...."

Next few days: We hope to make contact with the broker on price adjustment and with the Cummins certified mechanic to come aboard for a sea trial.

Personal comment: So far, it was more useful talking with a different analyst at the labs than getting the [additional] ferrography report. But then again, maybe I did not ask the right questions regarding the ferrography report. It seems the ferrography report suggests ferrous oxide [rust] as the primary root cause metal problem.

 

[MikeP]

When engines sit for an extended period, the cyl walls often get a light coat of surface rust. Then, when the engine is started, this is immediately removed by the rings and deposited in the oil. The actual affect of the surface rust on the engine itself is of no consequence but it then will skew the oil analysis. So I totally agree that the way to go is change the oil and run the engine and then take another sample in exactly the same way - whatever that was - that the previous sample was taken.

 

[REBrueckner]

"So.... the way to go is change the oil and run the engine....

Cummins certified mechanic agrees.

We are STILL awaiting reply from broker and seller on the need for a further price reduction having provided them an estimate of the repairs required.

We also need permission from the seller to have the suspect STB engine lube oil changed, to have a helmsman/captain provided, and permission for a sea trial with the Cummins mechanic.[ Insurance coverage for captains has apparently become an item of general concern but has been ironed out in our case here.

 

[q240z]

Fischer Panda generator overheating?

Hmmm. These are cooled by seawater. This is why they are so quiet. They may be the least reliable marine gensets on the market. I'd worry.

Some of the Fischer Pandas were seawater cooled, but the later ones (perhaps especially the bigger ones) are fresh. Even the generator section is freshwater cooled on mine.

 

[REBrueckner]

Correction for techies!!:

I corrected my ferrography report post, #7, to show results as a range of particle size in MICRONS, not the concentration in parts per million [ppm] as I previously posted.

[The earlier oil analysis report, post #1, IS correctly reported in units of ppm. ]

 

[Finalee]

A year later. What happened?