New Air Force One.

[capttonyf]

I was reading that the new Air Force One was priced at $4.2 Billion. So President Elect Trump told Boeing to cancel the order because he didn't need a $4.2 Billion Dollar Airplane to fly around in. Now I just read that Boeing is going to meet with him to reduce the price and try to get the contract back.

So now I have a few questions and I'm hoping that a few of you members that are ex military and or pilots can chime in.

1. What is the normal cost of a 747-8?

2. I understand AF1 is Custom built to Military Specs, with counter measures, and numerous redundant systems. I've also heard it's just as capable as the White House as far as communications, should there ever be a need.

3. Does anyone know exact details on what makes it Military Grade, and any other interesting facts about it?

4. For some of you in the know, does $4.2 Billion seem reasonable for all the custom extras involved? Or was that a Lobbyist for Boeing instructing the Sales Department to Pad the Bill because it's for the US Government and they don't care what it cost the Tax Payers? So is that what it should cost, or is Boeing is taking advantage? Is the plane really worth $4.2 Billion or did we have crappy negotiators finalize the deal?

5. Finally, how is it now that since Trump said he'll cancel the order, that Boeing now wants to renegotiate the Plane purchase to a much lower price? Are they going to cut corners on the plane, make it less safe, less luxurious, or is Boeing going to make less profit? If it's just make less profit, then whoever negotiated the original deal should be investigated. They need to be investigated for Dereliction of Duty and or have their bank accounts checked for a pay off to approve a bad deal for the US Tax Payers. I would think if you purposely, or neglectfully cost your employer possibly a Billion Dollars or more that you would be held criminally responsible for something, Right?

Any incite into this would be greatly appreciated. I'm really interested to find out how, and why Boeing is able to come up with a lower price just because we asked. There has to be a reason, and I'm hoping it's not because our government negotiators suck. If that's the case it makes you wonder how many other things they paid to much for and wasted our money on.

Thanks Ahead of Time.

Tony

 

[Freeebird]

I think the short answer is pretty simple. This is the first time any big corporation has had to deal with an independent businessman vs a politician who is part of a rigged system. It was either play the game and sharpen their pencil, or lose the project altogether which would have been a major embarrassment. Seems to me that was a rather "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" proposition, but I think they made the right call. No doubt it will set a precedent for things to come.

 

[saltshaker]

I agree with Randy but I think the problem goes pretty deep. The US gov demands all these custom requirements which the manufacturer is expected to comply with. All these custom mods cost money and the US gov doesn't seem to care to evaluate the cost benefit of each. The manufacturer in turn agrees to the work and puts a premium on it. Hopefully this will now start to change rapidly. I don't think Trump is just saying do it cheaper. I'm sure he wants to know why the plane is so expensive and what can the manufacturer and the US gov can do to lower the cost.

 

[Cricket]

A 747-8 is about $375 million per copy. The AF1 development invoice to the Feds is about $170 million, probably already paid. Sure is hard to understand how you get from 375 million for a everyday 747 to 2 billion for a new AF1 aircarft. Btw, something for the experts, plane life is based on number of cycles, the current AF1 fleet couldn't have that many cycles compared to a commercial 747 of the same vintage??? Guess they're not interested in a refurbing them??

 

[capttonyf]

A 747-8 is about $375 million per copy. The AF1 development invoice to the Feds is about $170 million, probably already paid. Sure is hard to understand how you get from 375 million for a everyday 747 to 2 billion for a new AF1 aircarft. Btw, something for the experts, plane life is based on number of cycles, the current AF1 fleet couldn't have that many cycles compared to a commercial 747 of the same vintage??? Guess they're not interested in a refurbing them??

So $375 Million + $170 Million for developement = $545 Million and then lets add some $455 Million in Fat to manufacture and install the $170 in Developments and take it up to a cool $1 Billion. Thats two and a half times more then a standard 747-8. How in the hell did they come up with $4.2 Billion. That's nearly 8 $545 million dollar AF1's, or 11 standard 747-8's. WOW!

Think about that, our politicians cared so little about our tax dollars that under our current leadership they allowed that to happen. That is TOTAL EGG ON THE FACE of the American People. In order for that to happen someone, somewhere in this current administration or Congress had to have been paid off, or offered a Multi Million Dollar a year PR Job with Boeing or one of it's Subsideraries. How in the hell could that be allowed? Who is the person or person's who would sign off on something like that? Did Congress, the President, the Budget Office, I mean someone, did they not look at it the bill and think Hmmmmm, thats $3+ Billion more then our last AF1? It's truely sickening and upsetting to think we have homeless children and Veterans not receiving proper care, but yet someone is so irrisponsible as to potentially waste over $3 Billion Dollars. It's really sad.

Also as mentioned above I would think the plane gets a fraction of the use compared to a commercial plane, can't they just update, and refit it every few years?

Now back to the fun stuff. What exactly is on this plane and what are it's capabilities to justify it costing more then 2 standard 747-8's?

Tony

 

[saltshaker]

I don't think you can point the finger solely at the current administration for this. This type of excess and waste is why so many are sick and tired of the Washington career politicians. Both parties are equally at fault for letting this type of BS go on for so long.

 

[Cricket]

Don't forget for $4bil the taxpayers get 2 of those birds.
I'm sure both the current 747's have all of the latest avionics and other high tech updates and trick stuff as needed.
And what are they going to do with the current aircraft?
The worst part of this is we're shocked at $4 billion, what we don't know are all of the $10-$50-$100 billion BS projects happening.

 

[capttonyf]

I don't think you can point the finger solely at the current administration for this. This type of excess and waste is why so many are sick and tired of the Washington career politicians. Both parties are equally at fault for letting this type of BS go on for so long.

I know it's not all the current administrations fault. That's why I mentioned Congress. Both parties are to blame.

Tony

 

[capttonyf]

Don't forget for $4bil the taxpayers get 2 of those birds.
I'm sure both the current 747's have all of the latest avionics and other high tech updates and trick stuff as needed.
And what are they going to do with the current aircraft?
The worst part of this is we're shocked at $4 billion, what we don't know are all of the $10-$50-$100 billion BS projects happening.

Tell me about it. $5 million to study the relationship between Man and Elephant. Just to name 1.

Tony

 

[Freeebird]

I don't think you can point the finger solely at the current administration for this. This type of excess and waste is why so many are sick and tired of the Washington career politicians. Both parties are equally at fault for letting this type of BS go on for so long.

Very true. This is why both sides hated Trump and the reason he won. He may turn out to be as full of crap as everybody else, but at least he looks different so far. Time will tell.

Why not just have several smaller presidential planes with the POTUS in one and higher ups in the others? Give him the one with all the countermeasures, and arm the others with offensive weapons to go after would be attackers. Less money and more targets to bring down vs a one and done deal. When it's just a domestic flight, put him on the one small plane and let the military provide any necessary cover. It's pretty obvious he's not going to be flying a bunch of press people around, and it'll save a bunch of money! LOL

 

[Tim Powell]

Just lease his to the feds every one gets happy. From what i read its nicer than if not as nice as AF1. Then they only have to purchase one.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/politics/elections/these-are-the-planes-donald-trump-owns

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I think the whole contract is 2.4B so that would include 2 copies of the same plane.

 

[Glory]

I was reading that the new Air Force One was priced at $4.2 Billion. So President Elect Trump told Boeing to cancel the order because he didn't need a $4.2 Billion Dollar Airplane to fly around in. Now I just read that Boeing is going to meet with him to reduce the price and try to get the contract back.

So now I have a few questions and I'm hoping that a few of you members that are ex military and or pilots can chime in.

1. What is the normal cost of a 747-8?

2. I understand AF1 is Custom built to Military Specs, with counter measures, and numerous redundant systems. I've also heard it's just as capable as the White House as far as communications, should there ever be a need.

3. Does anyone know exact details on what makes it Military Grade, and any other interesting facts about it?

4. For some of you in the know, does $4.2 Billion seem reasonable for all the custom extras involved? Or was that a Lobbyist for Boeing instructing the Sales Department to Pad the Bill because it's for the US Government and they don't care what it cost the Tax Payers? So is that what it should cost, or is Boeing is taking advantage? Is the plane really worth $4.2 Billion or did we have crappy negotiators finalize the deal?

5. Finally, how is it now that since Trump said he'll cancel the order, that Boeing now wants to renegotiate the Plane purchase to a much lower price? Are they going to cut corners on the plane, make it less safe, less luxurious, or is Boeing going to make less profit? If it's just make less profit, then whoever negotiated the original deal should be investigated. They need to be investigated for Dereliction of Duty and or have their bank accounts checked for a pay off to approve a bad deal for the US Tax Payers. I would think if you purposely, or neglectfully cost your employer possibly a Billion Dollars or more that you would be held criminally responsible for something, Right?

Any incite into this would be greatly appreciated. I'm really interested to find out how, and why Boeing is able to come up with a lower price just because we asked. There has to be a reason, and I'm hoping it's not because our government negotiators suck. If that's the case it makes you wonder how many other things they paid to much for and wasted our money on.

Thanks Ahead of Time.

Tony[/QUOT

"3. Does anyone know exact details on what makes it Military Grade"

$3,000 toilet seat!

Yea, I pretty sure that's it.

 

[krush]

Here's an article about regular 747 costs: http://247wallst.com/aerospace-defense/2014/06/03/why-a-boeing-747-8-costs-357-million/

EDIT: And here is more info specific to AF1 http://247wallst.com/aerospace-defe...-a-boeing-747-cost-about-20-of-air-force-one/ "How Much Does a Boeing 747 Cost? About 20% of Air Force One"

Another thought, there is nothing wrong with the current 747 used for presidential transport, and what is the reason that they wouldn't last another 20 years?

Why does the pres need a 747 anyway? And WTF, the president really is NOT supposed to be that important. He's just the leader of 1/3 of the government. He's not a king.

Articles say that Obama cost $80mil + for his vacations....who controls the purse strings on this budget?

Not that long ago (75-100 years?), an average citizen could walk up to the front door of the whitehouse and knock on it....at least that's what the stories say!

During the sec of defense hearing, congress guys were going on about the RFP and paper work to replace the military sidearm (pistol) is hundreds and hundreds of pages. These people never had to meet a budget or earn a profit. The hardly ever work over 40 hours a week, and few work weekends.

 

[SEVEN]

You guys ever hear of the 1,000 dollar toilet seat for the government? It's true no one checks the supplier and crap like this gets hidden and someone gets their palms greased.

 

[jim rosenthal]

It's the peanuts and the M&Ms, Tony. They carry a lot of them. Plus, custom china, matchbooks, etc.


Actually I think AF1 does carry a lot of high-zoot radios etc. I can't imagine a radio that would add THAT much. Maybe it's going to have separate bedrooms for all of Trump's ex-wives and kids.

 

[ronparise]

This excess and waste in the military (and every other government program I would bet) has nothing to do with waste, incompetence, kickbacks, bribes, greased palms etc.

The military (with the new AirForce 1) is a jobs program; we need a new Air Force 1, not because the old one needs to be replaced. We need a new Air Force 1 to keep Boeing employees employed

The military budget is about half of the Federal budget, not because we need to keep ahead of our enemies, but rather to keep our citizens employed. There is just not enough real work that we can have 100% employment, so we have to "make work" and because so many of us are convinced that the military needs to be rebuilt a bloated military budget gets approved every time even by the deficit hawks. Its easy to get a new unnecessarry military program approved, but a network of high speed trains or a government paid electric grid, or solar panels for every roof, or new bridges across the country, not so much

heres some things I found on the internet that says it better than I

"Why is the military’s half of the pie sacrosanct? Wasteful and unnecessary military programs get a pass from legislators because the military is also our largest and most secure jobs program, one that has penetrated into the nooks and crannies of Every Town U.S.A. If it were disbanded, the economy would be crippled by soaring unemployment, plant closures, and bankruptcies."

and this from several years ago

"National security is a cover for job security.
This is nuts.
Wouldn’t it be better to have a jobs program that created things we really need — like light-rail trains, better school facilities, public parks, water and sewer systems, and non-carbon energy sources — than things we don’t, like obsolete weapons systems?
Historically some of America’s biggest jobs programs that were critical to the nation’s future have been justified by national defense, although they’ve borne almost no relation to it. The National Defense Education Act of the late 1950s trained a generation of math and science teachers. The National Defense Highway Act created millions of construction jobs turning the nation’s two-lane highways into four- and six-lane Interstates.
Maybe this is the way to convince Republicans and blue-dog Democrats to spend more federal dollars putting Americans back, and working on things we genuinely need: Call it the National Defense Full Employment Act."


So if Trump does succeed in re-negotiating the bill for AirForce One (and other government spending) downward.... good for him. but not so good for the economy. To keep people working he is going to have to spend the money on other programs, probably by convincing republicans that we need it for the national defense. With any luck we will get things we actually need instead of a new airplane we dont.

 

[krush]

Look up how well that high-speed rail project is going for Kalifornicated......The truth is government can't do anything right anymore. Some state and local gov do a fair job, but not the federal. And def not Cali.

 

[ronparise]

Look up how well that high-speed rail project is going for Kalifornicated......The truth is government can't do anything right anymore. Some state and local gov do a fair job, but not the federal. And def not Cali.

The question isnt can government do anything right. We can have tht discussion another time. The questions posed in this thread are why is it so expensive and do we need it at all

Im suggesting that the reason is: Contracts like this are first and foremost jobs programs, designed to keep the economy humming. The measure of success isnt how how cheap can we build it for, rather, how many people are employed.

 

[capttonyf]

The question isnt can government do anything right. We can have tht discussion another time. The questions posed in this thread are why is it so expensive and do we need it at all

Im suggesting that the reason is: Contracts like this are first and foremost jobs programs, designed to keep the economy humming. The measure of success isnt how how cheap can we build it for, rather, how many people are employed.

I get that the Military as a whole is a jobs program, BUT how many people are actually involved in the building of a plane, a few hundred? Even for a few thousand seems like a lot of expense. Hell you couls divide that $4 Billion up amongst 4 million people and it would go much further then a salary. How do I get I on that Stimulas Plan?

Tony