Jack Hargrave

[oscarvan]

My opinions of course, and taste is personal....

Never tire of looking at his amazing work, the fascinating relationship with Slane, and admiring his dedication and work ethics.

I call him the "Frank Lloyd Wright" of yacht design, and he is one of the factors that keep me coming back to the Hatts. Form follows function and in the 70's and 80's function pushed hard. Whereas many designs before were works of art with limited regard for interior space, those decades saw the departure from that. I think the 53MY is the absolute best looking of its era. Are there better layouts, sure. No disrespect to Mr Lazzara, for example, but even though his Viking 55MY is a perfect layout for our needs I just can't imagine floating down the river in that "thing". Let's not even talk about what came later. With few exceptions on the higher end I find modern production yacht design about as exciting as most automotive design. Very, very few true works of art.

Learned two interesting facts though while reading "The Yachts and Ships of Jack Hargrave".

Jack designed the Jungle Queen.
Jack was a sailor first and foremost!

 

[jim rosenthal]

Every year, JH, who was an excellent artist (another thing in common with FLW) designed and printed a Christmas card that his studio sent out to friends. I think some of them are featured in the book about him. Beautiful work.

 

[oscarvan]

Every year, JH, who was an excellent artist (another thing in common with FLW) designed and printed a Christmas card that his studio sent out to friends. I think some of them are featured in the book about him. Beautiful work.

Yes they are in the book. Beautiful.

 

[Passages]

Ummmm....I'm about to take some heat for this but... what the hey???

First let me say that I shopped for many years for a Hatteras. The joke on the forum was that Krush and I competed for the title of longest boat shopper. Even Freeeebird, was wondering if I'd ever buy a boat.

Ok, I really REALLY wanted a Hatteras. I have the utmost respect for Jack Hargrave and the build quality from our friends in New Bern NC.

For sportfish convertables, Nothing beats the 36-45 Hatts.

Then I began looking at 58-65 Motoryachts and this is where Jack missed the boat and Lazarra excelled. You will find this range of Hatts with miss steps such as a split engine room and a ladder from the lower helm as the only access to the flybridge. Compare that to the spacious engine room on my boat and a proper staircase from the salon to the flybridge.

As far as referring to the Lazarra design as a "thing" well, see for yourself. I don't think my boat is ugly at all but beauty is in the eye they say.

I am wearing my asbestos suit so let the flaming begin.

 

[racclarkson@gmail.com]

What calamity befell you requiring the need to stencil “FWD” on the bulkhead?

 

[rsmith]

It’s all good if you only go out on calm days or for the annual trip to the fuel dock. But it does look like a Winnebago mounted to a deck boat hull. No offense I’m sure it’s a great live aboard.

 

[Freestyle]

Give credit where due.

The bulkhead is properly labeled FWD.

This helps when you re-power.

Bruce

Freestyle
Tampa

 

[krush]

........ The joke on the forum was that Krush and I competed for the title of longest boat shopper. ....................

Then I began looking at 58-65 Motoryachts and this is where Jack missed the boat and Lazarra excelled. You will find this range of Hatts with miss steps such as a split engine room and a ladder from the lower helm as the only access to the flybridge. Compare that to the spacious engine room on my boat and a proper staircase from the salon to the flybridge.

As far as referring to the Lazarra design as a "thing" well, see for yourself. I don't think my boat is ugly at all but beauty is in the eye they say.

I am wearing my asbestos suit so let the flaming begin.

These are many of the misses that the Hatteras design had. I think it was more of just being outdated, though. I never understood the flush deck as opposed to a raised pilot house design (which eventually took over). In the 2000's Hatt started making a raised pilot house design. A usable cockpit is required for people that actually recreate on their boat.

As for the contest, who actually is the winner?

 

[Passages]

Winnebago on a hull? Hey, I guess I never knew how much I liked the lines of Winnebago. LOL

 

[Boatsb]

Too bad the engine room isn't air conditioned too. That would make working on it so nice.

Many of them have it by the way.

I've worked on a few and overall a pretty well built boat. Certainly better to work on than the split ER and zoom much bigger inside than the hatts. The 55 I did chargers and other upgrades to was a pleasure to work on. Stairs everywhere that were easy to go up and down. Easy access under the fly bridge and when we put in the autopilot we were able to get everywhere we needed to run cable.

If you want to compare seaworthy characteristics of motoryachts it's like having a physics lecture in kindergarten. You may think your doing something good but it's a waste of time. They all take the seas like crap compared to a good sporty.

 

[Pascal]

The one thing I have never liked about the Lazzara designs is that the foredeck is too short and gives the boat a stubby look. More room inside though but not as balanced aesthetically. Quality wise their construction was excellent With good system designs and accessibility

The 2009 84 that I ve been running for almost 4 years now, only burns 75 GPH at 20 kts in calm waters. That’s about 20% less than other boats that size. It also gets on plane with almost no bow rise, in fact the boat doesn’t even have trim tabs... doesn’t need them. Fast cruise is 25kts and tops at 32.

 

[jim rosenthal]

I don't think it's an ugly boat, except for those oval portlights, which I don't think look as good as the rectangular ones. But she does look topheavy to me. However, it's your money, and you should buy what pleases you.

If you compare that boat with some modern MY designs, she sure looks better and better. I think the classic Hatteras MYs were some of the prettiest boats ever built, but they do lack interior room when you compare them to the competition that came along during the very long run of the original larger Hatteras MYs.

The part of your own boat that you look at the most IS the interior... you probably made the right choice for you. At least you didn't buy a Sea Ray.

 

[Pascal]

These are many of the misses that the Hatteras design had. I think it was more of just being outdated, though. I never understood the flush deck as opposed to a raised pilot house design (which eventually took over). In the 2000's Hatt started making a raised pilot house design. A usable cockpit is required for people that actually recreate on their boat.

As for the contest, who actually is the winner?

If you re not fishing a big swimplatform with stairs is all you need but what is critical to most is a big aft deck. Unfortunately hatteras reduces aft deck size in the 90s focusing on interior space. It may work up north but doesn’t work in Fl and the Bahamas.

As to the flush deck design, this Is why Hargrave and Hatteras were so successful in the 70s and 80s. No steps no stairs all in one level. Back then split level MYs were common but Hargrave was able to make it work on boats as small as 50’. Brilliant.

 

[Passages]

Too bad the engine room isn't air conditioned too. That would make working on it so nice.

Geeeze Scott - you're such a prima dona

Just get Down here for my electrical upgrades while the weather is still comfortable.

 

[Boatsb]

Are we adding the engine room ac?

 

[oscarvan]

Ummmm....I'm about to take some heat for this but... what the hey???

First let me say that I shopped for many years for a Hatteras. The joke on the forum was that Krush and I competed for the title of longest boat shopper. Even Freeeebird, was wondering if I'd ever buy a boat.

Ok, I really REALLY wanted a Hatteras. I have the utmost respect for Jack Hargrave and the build quality from our friends in New Bern NC.

For sportfish convertables, Nothing beats the 36-45 Hatts.

Then I began looking at 58-65 Motoryachts and this is where Jack missed the boat and Lazarra excelled. You will find this range of Hatts with miss steps such as a split engine room and a ladder from the lower helm as the only access to the flybridge. Compare that to the spacious engine room on my boat and a proper staircase from the salon to the flybridge.

As far as referring to the Lazarra design as a "thing" well, see for yourself. I don't think my boat is ugly at all but beauty is in the eye they say.

I am wearing my asbestos suit so let the flaming begin.

No flaming. At times spirited but always civilized discussion is one of the reasons I like this forum.

That said, you're slightly talking peaches and kumquats here. I'm in the 53-58 range, you're beyond that. I was talking about the "thing" in the picture below. Your boat is certainly not ugly. It's not a timeless masterpiece either . In all fairness, neither are all of Jacks. Humor me and allow me to speculate on a familiar theme: Like the fate that befalls all designers, I suspect that pressure from others at the table forced him to do things like the early 58 with the wall of windows which makes it, to me, a "thing" too. Marketing said "the customer wants a wider salon!" and the beancounters said "we're not building a new mold! 1510 or the highway" And Jack was in the middle making a 58' wide body on a 1510..... not gonna work. Finally everyone gave in, they went to 18-6 and viola the later 58 (with the side decks) was once again an aesthetic masterpiece. That, the 53MY and as we recently discovered the 70TC are, in my eyes designs that belong in the book with the E-type, the Concorde and Falling Waters. And yes, my engine rooms will have AC, of course.

Below the Lazzara thing, and the proper 58

 

[oscarvan]

The 1510 58 and the 53. Of course we're purely talking aesthetics here. The utility of a side deck versus the trek through the salon with dripping foulies on the Nazmiyal rugs is a whole different discussion.

 

[Passages]

Well Oscarvan, you're being far too civil. I'd take off my asbestos suit if not for the fact Freeebird has not chimed in yet.

I agree with everything said so far. This is a better side profile of Lazarra's late 80's MY design. I have to admit, i now can't not stop seeing the Winnebago comparison. Not necesssrily a bad thing, just a funny observation.

The Hargrave exterior lines are much more timeless and gracefully applied. BUT, those nice lines sacrifice valuable interior space which is important for a liveaboard.

 

[Pascal]

I ve never cared for the looks of the 1510 58 MY. In the pictures above you can see how the house was stretched forward and the boat lost the proportions of the 53.

In a way boats are like cars and even airplane. A long foredeck, like a long hood, looks a lot better. But yes you loose interior space.

The 76 Lazzara, which was launched in the mid 90s and was the first boat sold under the Lazzara name after they split with Viking, is a pretty good looking boat.

Now if you want to have nightmares look up the new Elada 85 which Lazzara in building at their new yard in Turkey...

 

[Freeebird]

What calamity befell you requiring the need to stencil “FWD” on the bulkhead?

He's trying to tell us his engine room is so big, it needs directions. He also tends to drink.

It’s all good if you only go out on calm days or for the annual trip to the fuel dock. But it does look like a Winnebago mounted to a deck boat hull. No offense I’m sure it’s a great live aboard.

It doesn't look like a Winnebago, it just looks like it hit a dock a little too hard.

Give credit where due.

The bulkhead is properly labeled FWD.

This helps when you re-power.

Bruce

Freestyle
Tampa

Like someone might accidentally install the engines facing the wrong direction?


I still think my explanation is the correct one.