Is Do It Yourself Really Worth It?

[Freebird]

I had an enjoyable phone conversation yesterday with Yachtsmanbill regarding his upcoming trip back up north. I brought up a point that I thought may be worthy of a post.

Like many of you, I derive a certain amount of satisfaction when I do things myself. However, as I am sure is the case with many of you, I just don't have as much free time as I would like. I have made some changes in my lifestyle and work habits that are affording me more time, but you just can't put a price on "your" time. For that matter, we are all living on borrowed time with no guarantees of when we'll be recalled!

Okay, to the point of this thread. If you make say $40.00 per hour, for example, and you pay someone $70.00 per hour to work on your boat (or whatever), aren't you really losing money by doing it yourself? You are giving up that precious free time for a net of $30.00 an hour, $10.00 less than you are willing to work for in the real world, and you are working on your boat instead of riding around in it! Seems to me, if you have the option, you would be better off putting in a little overtime and letting someone else do the dirty work.

In my case, I can work on week-ends and make more money than I would spend on having someone else do my dirty work. If I'm just bored, or really don't care about cruising, I'll turn wrenches and swing hammers and run saws. But I would rather spend my free time playing with my boat as opposed to working on it.

Food for thought, or waste of space?

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Top o' the mornin' to ya my geographically gifted friend-- I guess the only way to sum up the labor/free time differential is to decide whether or not you can trust someone else to provide you with the quality results that you can expect from yourself.
The mechanic that I had in NOLA did flawless work, with one exception; everytime he stripped a wire or used a wire tie and cut the tail off, it went in the bilge. No big thing you say, but one of those golldarned things will stop a pump dead in its' track. I TACTFULLY mentioned this, not to offend, and he said that it never dawned on him. LESSON learned.
Although I consider myself anally gifted, sometimes its a curse. I pay some one to paint and you get a lousy edge or painted over screw heads.
Iff'n I had a bunch of old money, I guess it wouldnt matter as I could sit and critique my employees job, at least until he quit.
I suppose the only choices I weigh are how much of a PITA vs how much of a piYa the job entails. I spray AWLGRIP with beautiful results, but I have a pal that does it from the scaffold all day long. My arms are sore after watching him for 10 hours. I mix the paint, stretch hoses, buy lunch AND spend the weeks prior sanding and removing hardware and bedding. To some end, I can control the results.
2nd pot of coffee is on! Gotta lot to do today-- need to finish the tug job (2000lbs of new steel so far) and get ready for the TENN TOM adventure next week. No rest for the weary!! Find me that dry storage spot!! ws

 

[yachtsmanbill]

ADDENDUM-- I cant wait for you guys to see my end results; plus , I cant wait to see them MY OWN BAD SELF !! ws

 

[Genesis]

I'm willing to pay people on that very basis only so long as the work is done right. Unforutnately, in many cases, that's not true....... a job done wrong has an infinite cost because you have to do it over anyway, and if it keeps you off the water on a day you'd rather be out there then its doubly bad.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Case in point: I hired DD to fix my Allison gear. I was working on the boat while they were taking it apart and while they put it back together. As I watched and checked in with them everything seems to be going okay. What I didn't see was:

1) They pryed the shaft back from the coupling without loosening the set screws in the ring for the dripless. I caught this before launch and had to move the ring back into position. Good thing or I would have had one heck of a leak.

2) They never sealed the exhaust collector joint to the turbos and they leaked. So, I had to do this a month later when I noticed soot on the blankets. I also had to clean the blankets.

3) When they stripped out one of the alternator adapter bracket bolts, they drilled out the hole in the adapter, put in a course thread bolt with a nut on the other side of the adapter. This was done with no lock of any kind since they didn't have enough threads there. What happened? Well, after about 75hours of running the nut fell off, the bolt slid back and it was riding on the flywheel of the alternator and making a terrible noise. So, I had to remove the alternator and fix that right.

These are DD certified mechanics that work for DD. I should have just taken the time to do the job myself. I would have been money ahead and I wouldn't have to redo half of the job. Time is worth nothing except when I'm out on the boat. Then it's invaluable and I don't want to be fixing someone elses mistakes.

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Sometimes you pay for someone elses experience. As in that gear job, a seasoned pro might know where that one hidden bolt is. When I hire someone, I am generally right on top of them as a helper, providing the ANNUIT COEPTIS--thats on U.S. currency.
Thats where I weigh the pros and cons of having to R&R a gear box myself or pay a pro to move the 1000# gear. Alot of the time I pay for labor, and its just that--LABOR. I would call the guy back to reinstall after I did the bench overhaul, and probably keep him on to help with the alignment.
As with my starters and a time and tune, after scrutinizing the "space", I felt that it would be better to get a small guy in there and hand him tools. I made the connections and that was a PISTOL !! It took longer for me to get along side the starter than to hook it up.
When I am done with my project, I will be able to sit on a bucket next to that same starter. Its really gonna blow pulling the 12s out, but I will probably bite that bullet when the time comes.
I guess that a lot depends on the time constraints also. Like you said, is it better to pay or be without, but then you also need to doublecheck their work. ws

 

[Paul45c]

Call me crazy, Randy, but I honestly enjoy a lot of the little (and sometimes larger) jobs I do on "101." Oh, sure, there are plenty of times you ask yourself "why did I open THIS can of worms myself," but usually it's all good and it's usually a LOT of really useful learning. It wasn't all that long ago that I learned even basic maintenance things like changing my own raw water impellers. After doing it and realizing how necessary it could become (say, while cruising the islands or something) you ask yourself how you could have gone so long without knowing how. It had been bugging me for quite a while.

Those things aside that all boaters should really know, then yeah, it comes down to what a pro really should do, what you'd have to pay, and all that calculus. You're a guy that puts a high premium on running a lot and maximizing uptime, whereas lots of boaters are content with minor usage and enjoying the hobby aspect of DIY on everything. Many of us are somewhere in the middle. I think more than anything, it comes down to what you LIKE to do. You can't make yourself LIKE doing boat maintenance in all its living colors and forms if you're not cut that way, so don't try to justify doing it yourself -- hire it out. There's no "wrong" answer.

 

[SeaSwick]

OK. Let's $0.02 worth with a broad brush... There are people who like BOATS, & there are people who like BOATING;

"LIKES BOATS" people -- Dock. Then 'enjoy', rinsing, drying, stowing gear, etc after a day on the water.
"LIKES BOATING" people: -- Dock & go home.

I generally leave the mechanical, electrical & below the waterline stuff to the yard. It gives me Peace-of-Mind, as well as someone to yell at, and hold accountable, if things go wrong. But we always do a pre-castoff system inspection, right? It's a beautiful day & "Sum-thin ain't right-ish?" We're not leaving the dock. (Type-A Likes Boats people)

Is that crickets I'm hearing in the deafening silence???

"My" Yard walks me through what they've done after significant work, and not to justify the bill, but for my education. If I'm not interested, they're not interested in my business. That's the God's Honest Truth, I guess I'm just spoiled...

It's raining out? GREAT! I can go to the boat & get X,Y & Z done, necessary stuff just short of lining up all the screw head slots.

Stuff that is just pure grunt-work at $70.00+ per hour? I'm not just doing it because of the crushing renovation budget I'm in the middle of, but the enjoyment I get & having the time...

Renovations aside, I've always tried to budget things for the yard to do, at least every other year. It keeps me on their "good customer" list & they're happy to guide me through something I do myself, without suspicions that I'm trying to rip them off.

I guess what I'm not conveying very well is... sometimes, putting $$ into the boat, isn't just putting $$ into the boat. It's 'investing' in The Yard as well... assuming you have a Yard that's worth having you as a customer...

Believe me, I'm no "Mr Got-Rocks", but my phone calls get answered, or return in a timely manner.

 

[jim rosenthal]

I like working on my boat. Over the years, I've done most of the work myself. But lately, as I get older, slower and busier, I've given up some of the things I did for the first dozen years or so:

-sanding and painting the bottom; not any more, no thanks.
-buffing/waxing etc- not any more.

I still do all the oil changes, still do all the washing and cleaning up, all the exterior maintenance, and when something breaks, I fix it unless it's really beyond me. (like AC, or something that involves welding). And sometimes I have to call Dave from akyla and get some help. But generally it's all taken care of by yours truly.

I would be the first to admit that it would be cheaper for me to work and pay someone else to do it- IF THEY DID IT RIGHT. (sorry for hollering) The problem is, they don't do it right, much of the time.

Plus, I don't want to work more. I want to be on my boat more, even if it means working on it. I think of that part of the boat-owning experience as occupational therapy, and I find that it's good for me. Not everyone feels that way, but most of us here do.

Over the years I have saved thousands of dollars doing things myself on my boats. Plus, I know where most things are and how they were installed, because I did them. Finally, if I need to yell at someone who didn't do it right, he's generally no further away than the closest mirror.

 

[Boatsb]

Long and short.

I spent 15 years worknig on boats for a living. I have done lots of fiberglass, Gas engine work and electronics plus some light diesel.

If I can't get the job done right and in a reasonable time I will do it myself.

Usually I have to do it myself. Its hard to get it done right and impossible to get it done reasonably quick at a fair price so I do it myself.

 

[Freestyle]

I wish I was a guy who loves boats that "could do it right" or better than the yard. I have an engineering degree and years of service in Navy engine rooms. Put a wrench in my hand and there is a great chance something will go wrong. I can diagnose problems and disassemble pretty well although these old boats have old nuts and bolts that are often seized. Re-assembly for me is just an adventure. So I have to hire people and hope they do it right or at least stand behind their work.

I've even quit doing simple thngs like washing the boat when I come in. For $25 we have a guy who cleans better than me and allows me to get the wife and three kids off the boat and home to bed immediately after cruises. I think this buys me a lot of time on the water without familial grumbling.

Same goes for oil, impeller and zinc changes. I pay our night watchman $100 labor to change the oil, impellers and engine zincs. That is buying some cheap free time. Cleaning the bottom and changing those zincs is probably $300 per year to save untold hours and potential frustrations. I can also make 4 years between bottom painting so this may pay for itself.

Even with this non- do it your self attitude and cruising 450 hours per year with a family of five, I still do not spend the mythical 10% of an inexpensive Hatteras's value in boat maintenance. I think it is more a testament to the quality of the boat than to luck but it sure has very little to do with my ability or lack thereof.

Unless you love the work as much as the cruising, spend the money to get the work done and go cruising. Your Hatteras may live forever but you definitely won't.

Bruce
1976 43 Hatteras DCMY
Freestyle
Tampa, FL

 

[Freebird]

Dang, looks like I hit on a winner will all those responses!

Truth is, like many of you, I too enjoy doing things on the boat the way I want them done. However, I know my limitations and I won't let my ego get me in trouble. I certainly do not have the expertise or equipment to rebuild my blown 12V71N. I do however have someone whom I trust to handle that chore for me.

There are exceptions to my thinking, and Freebird is a good example. When I take a week or so away from work and head to FL, I don't have anything but time on my hands. Granted, when an option presents itself, I spend my time in FL cruising/fishing with GuzBoy, going marina looking with Paul, going to FLIBS etc. But when nothing else is on the agenda, I work on the boat myself. I plan to do quite a bit of that because being over 700 miles away makes it very difficult to oversee anything. Trust becomes the main issue here, and I don't have personal relationships with many people down there.

Pat Bustle aka Liquid Asset has proven to be invaluable in helping me locate different people to help me with repair issues and the like. Without him, I would be in the dark and fending for myself in FL. Thanks Pat, I owe you several!

I don't mind washing a boat as it's no big deal to do that and I like looking at the end result when I'm finished. Buffing and waxing is another story. I'll pay to have that done. I change the oil in my boats, but not in my cars or trucks. I will most certainly have someone with more expertise install wood flooring and carpet, but I'll handle the decorating chores. I know what I like in that regard.

In short, I guess this is another area where each of us have to find that happy medium.

 

[Boss Lady]

I really enjoy doing things myself, but with the total lack of time that I have right now, I pay someone else to do things so I have more time to enjoy what I want to do which is use my boat. I have a real good friend that does most of the grunt work so that the Fountain is ready to go fishing. That is invaluable to me since I have more money than time right now. The Hat required so many man hours that it was impossible for me to even oversee any contractors that were needed, so I even hired that done. Like Randy said, the trust factor is huge. Fortuneantly I met Paul at Star Carpentry, or Boss Lady would still be a mess. When I find honest, hard working people I make sure that I share that information with anyone who is interested, so that honest, hard working people stay in business! Some things I can do better than most people who do it for a living, but somehow wood working has always escaped me. I can't cut a 2x4 straight with a laser guided circular saw, LOL, so I have to have a professional or else it looks like a frankenstein project. But, mechanical, electrical, and paint I do excellent work. When I have more time (someday) I will do most of the work, until then I will have use the best qualified people I can find.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Too true, Chris. When I find a shop that does good competent honest work at a reasonable price, I will find stuff for them to do to keep them busy. Most of this applies to my cars- there is a terrific place here in Annapolis that has worked on several of them and done very well for me. I sent them a friend with a sick Aston-Martin (is there any other kind?) and they did a clutch change for him that was less than half of what he would have spent at Steelwings. Remachined the bellhousing, too, so the pivot shaft bearing is a lot easier to replace next time. Smart, honest mechanics who work methodically and carefully from first principles are worth their weight in gold. They are valuable not only for what they do for you, but for the misery they DON'T give you.

Incidentally, this shop also rebuilds alternators, starters, etc. Mamock's Motor Electric, in Annapolis. If anyone is passing through and has an electrical problem. And you get my standing offer for dinner, for any member of the Hatteras forum who happens to be in Annapolis by boat. By boat, I said.

 

[Freebird]

And you get my standing offer for dinner, for any member of the Hatteras forum who happens to be in Annapolis by boat. By boat, I said.

Can the boat be on a trailer behind a '72 Chevy Blazer?

 

[Boss Lady]

LOL, Randy will do bout' anything for a free drink! Jim, I may be up for a cruising visit next year and I will have to take you up on the offer. I will do a search for stow-aways, before arrival. LOL

Chris

 

[Trojan]

Well maybe when you retire you will find that time to do your own work. Like Jim, I to do every thing myself except the bottom sanding and the bull work. The admiral does all the buffing and polishing and my 6 sons do the bull work. If I don't know how to do it, I get the books and read. After 54 years of boating I have done many types of repair. But each year something new comes along. It keeps you on your toes and your mind working. I spend 6 months on board and I am doing something everyday. Even when I'm on a cruise in the morning before the admiral gets up. I enjoy it as long as it does not interfere with the parties.

BILL

 

[Freebird]

I for one will probably never retire, and if I do, there will always be things I'll pay to have done even if I can do them myself. That is assuming I have any money left when I get to that point in life!

Life should be even more precious in one's later years, and I would really prefer to spend my final days crusing rather than anything else. I wasn't fortunate enough to have bred my own cleaning crew! I doubt little Bubba Jr. will have time to help the "old" man when that time comes. I'll be happy if he just comes along for the ride and pushes the elevator button for me so I can still drive from the bridge.

 

[Freebird]

2nd pot of coffee is on! Gotta lot to do today-- need to finish the tug job (2000lbs of new steel so far) and get ready for the TENN TOM adventure next week. No rest for the weary!! Find me that dry storage spot!! ws

Okay critics, I'm going to help another member in public so ya'll can understand the value of member to member conversations.

Pappy, talked to Aqua (662) 423-2222 Tom Snyder, they are booked for the winter for dry storage and do not allow any individual to work on their own boat. Their labor rate $75 hr. Forget them for anything other than a wet slip. They recommended Lee Spry.

Lee Spry Marine (662) 424-9577 will allow do it yourself. $7 ft to haul and block, then $1ft per day while it's on the hard and you do the work. No daily storage charge if they do the work at $60 hr. No wet storage available.

Suggestion, have them haul the boat and let them work on it for a day. Call them and tell them you're in a coma and can't come back for the boat until April. See what happens. Just use that scenario up front and see if they would work with you for being honest.

Grand Harbor (662) 667-5551 J Robertson, dockmaster, wasn't able to provide info as to wet slip availability, no dry, as dockmaster was out.

Pickwick Landing (731) 689-5175 Barbara, thinks wet slips are available, no dry. You'll need to check back with her so she can look out the window again.

Here's my thinking. Find the best deal on a wet slip, then schedule a haul out with Spry when you're going to be down, and work real fast! Either that or factor the cost of their labor with no daily storage rate vs your time and trouble with the daily storage rate. Then let it sit in a wet slip for better insulation during the winter months until you head back north.

Now, wasn't that fun?

 

[67hat34c]

Boating to me is doing stuff to it, improvements, repairs, innovations etc. boating to others is getting in and turning the key and going. Doing work youself can by a type of therapy as long as it is not like work. cant approach is like a job. it will help you physicaly, mentaly etc. keep you mind sharp and body strong. also issues with poor work from contractors. seems like the majority of stuff we have had contractors do turned out bad, they do not do what they say and do not take the care these boats need.

so for me do it yourself is the way to go. However since you are non resident owner, hiring contractors may be the way to go for some stuff, but you have to keep an eye on them, suspect you would spend a fair amount of time monitoring the job and doing quality controll inspections etc.

Another benefit i just thought of is , these boats are old, have alot of hardware above and below the water line and all have alot of systems, larger boats like yours have even more. alot of stuff to break and go bad at the wrong time, you have first hand experience with this. Consider this, if you had the 58 for a while and did your own engine work etc, do you think you would have had the same problem? When you work on the boat youself I would think you will be more in tune with it and will be able to know when something is going wrong and stop it before a total melt down. It is nice to be able to know what is wrong and what to do about it. That can be your unlimited warranty.