Honey grab a fender !!!!!!

[SEAWISE]

What have I got myself into now? I don’t even know where to start. Several months ago I went up to Sarnia Ontario to look at a 41C I was interested in buying. As it turns out I bought her and had her trucked to Gautier Mississippi. She was delivered this past Saturday. Do any of you guys remember me talking about how terrible she handled in the marina while I was up there putting her through sea trails? Refer to this tread. http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1579 I have seen drunks do a better job at handling a boat than I did when I took her out of the marina. I consider myself a good captain but this old gal would challenge anyone. She has a mind of her own. Yea I know what you’re thinking, the same thing I would be. Just move over son let me show you how it’s done. Well all I can say is come on down, I’ll be glad to take a lesson any time. I though I would get the hang of it after a little wheel time. I even did some touch and goes to practice while Barbara and I were up there on vacation to try to get the hang of it. When I did bring her back to the slip, she slid right in, did not touch anything. A perfect docking if I do say so myself. As it turns out I was mighty lucky that day.
Let me cut to the chase. When she was delivered this past Saturday we were getting her ready to go in the slings, and the truck driver said “oh yea the guys at the marina in Port Huron said to tell you that the props were put on backwards” I looked at him waiting to see him smile, but he was serious. Now why had I not noticed that when we had her out of the water to inspect the bottom? I remember looking at the wheels and shafts; they were clean and appeared okay. But I did not look at the way they were installed. So I put them on backwards like the driver said. The tops of the blades rotate inward! I could not for the life of me figure why anyone would do that. But that’s how she hit the water. It took me about seven hours to install the fly bridge, and everything worked on the first go round, except the horn. Turns out I had overlooked a ground wire. Very easy fix, two minutes, done. I turned the switches on pushed the start button, the engines came right up. Let her idle a minute, oil pressure good, water pump working. Eased the shift lever forward she moved ahead, pulled the shift lever back she responded astern. Both engines, everything seemed fine. I was tired and decided to call it a day. Turned in early and decided that I would bring her half way home the next day. I was up at 5am getting things ready and at first daylight the 6-53’s were purring and waiting on me. As I left the loading slip (we just left her there overnight) I had to make a sharp right turn to exit the marina. And again I noticed again how ill handling she was. I idled down to Mary Walker’s marine about a ¼ mile to take on fuel. Backed her to the fuel dock and missed my mark a couple of feet, no big deal the breeze that had developed had put me on the dock sooner than I had anticipated. But really I was okay and didn’t think to much about it. After fueling it was a easy run out to the Gulf of Mexico. It was a 60 mile run on the intercoastal to Waveland Ms. She ran great, the port engine did run a little hotter than I expected. As she neared 200 degrees I backed her down a little and she dropped back down to about 190. I feel sure she had never encountered water temps like those in the Gulf. I would image the water temps of the great lakes are some 20 degrees cooler. (More on temperatures later) Buy the time I got to Islander Marina in Waveland Ms. The wind had picked up some and there was some tide moving into the marina when I arrived. As you can image a new boat pulls into the marina, all eyes are on this guy. And I wanted to make a impression. I think I could have done better with my eyes closed I was all over the place. She was like possessed, the boat from hell. I was embarrassed to say the least. It seemed like it took me a hour to get lined up on the slip. I bet I tried 6 times before I finally gave up on a decent docking and had to wind up using a pole to hold the bow in place while I used the engines to pull the stern around and then slide along the pole. But I was in there. I took a deep breath shut the engines down and looked around and saw many relieved faces. Then they began slowly one by one to put down there fenders and boat hooks, and clap.
Now some of this story is told with tongue in cheek, but you get the idea.
Now that I have spilled my guts I need some advice on this “reversed props” thing. I “know” this has got to have something to do with this boat handling so bad. I am not bragging but my 34C, daylight and dark. Really guys I am not that bad a captain. I am ready for the questions so lets get this figured out. ????????

 

[Pascal]

i don't understand... props were mounted backwards, yet it was launched and it's runnin fine at cruise?

 

[Genesis]

What gears are on her? (make/model)

 

[MikeP]

The props rotate in whatever direction the tranny's are turning them. Mounting them "backwards" has nothing to do with the direction they turn.

It seems, although I have never read of any standards for this, that usually they rotate outward going forward and inward in reverse.

I assume that when you were docking, you were mostly doing it with trannys, leaving the rudder amidships. Check to be sure that the rudders are aligned and that when the rudder indicator shows they are centered, they really are centered.

The way the boat acted sure sounds like the rudders were in a substantial port or starboard setting while you tried to jockey the trannys to move the boat. I've done that accidentally several times and until you figure out what's happening, the boat acts "crazy."

Good luck and let us know what the problem is/was.

MikeP

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Check the trannies. Do the shafts turn while in neutral. Mine do (I'm going to fix that this winter), and you have to account for that when you are in tight quarters. I agree with MikeP996 also, you should check the rudder position.

 

[garyd]

If the 41 is like most Hats it has a keel. The best thought you can have is akin to a sailboat. Get the keel going in the direction you want then manuever the ship. You will not slide a keel boat much.

The other thing you should become familiar with is using the wheel to help dock the boat. Most people say to leave the wheel alone, yes it can cause a novice to get into trouble. But as you gain more experience you need to use the wheel. In some cases you have to use the wheel. If you are trying to dock a large realitively light boat without using the wheel it can be a difficult if not impossible task.

If you are in a river with a fast moving current with the wind going the same direction as the current you need to be familiar with using the wheel to get you home.

I have taught many a capt. to handle boats. And I always show them the virtues of using the wheel to help in docking. I always use it!

Have fun boating garyd

 

[67hat34c]

Maybe I missed something but did you sea trial this boat then find out props were on wrong shafts then change them and run it again in MS with same results?

Check direction engines are turning then check which direction the transmissions are turning in forward. I dont know 653's but would guess they are counter rotating and should be rotating outboard. transmissions should be turning same as engine. Just a thought but I wonder if the units were ever pulled and installed on wrong side. Cant see that happening but also cant see how you could be going forward with the props on wrong shafts. Also would wonder if gear ratios are matched, would not trust what is on the unit. only way to tell is with hand held Tach gun, measure rpm of engine and rpm of output shafts, verify ratio. also wonder if prop pitch is matched.

 

[spartonboat1]

Somehow, this was earlier posted to the wrong thread....

I spent a few years in the skilled trades many moons ago, but given the taper on the prop shaft and internal to the props, it seems it would be a virtual impossibility to actually mount the props "backwards". The keys would not in any manner fit into the keyways of the prop and the larger id of the prop normal forward end (which would be on the aft end in the installation) would disallow the prop nuts from making up or tightening on the props.

However, maybe two props were reversed side to side, stbd to port and vice versa, or possibly two RH or LH props were both mounted. Again, since props are usually (always) stamped RH and LH, hard to believe. But, given some of the yard workers I have encountered over the years, no way would I be surprised if two RH or LH props were both mounted up, instead of a set of a RH and LH prop.

 

[Pascal]

but if the props were switched port to stbd... wouldn't that affect the boat performance ?

gary, you're right... using the rudders when docking can be very helpful. i only started doing it on the 53 but despite it's "keel" and weight i find the effects of propwash to be helpful when turning the boat around. Boat spins much faster.

 

[67hat34c]

if the props were switched would that be just like putting in reverse? each prop would be turning in wrong direction when in forward gear. would not be possible for the boat to move forward. I wonder if both engines are turning in same direction either at engine or at transmission and old owner simply used 2 rh or 2 lh props. i would guess that it would cause close quarters manuvering problems. or if they are turning inboard might cause sluggish response. Some mechanic could have discovered the error after reinstalling and simply compensated with props. After hearing some of the horror stories regarding mechanics, this would not suprise me.

 

[ELECTRA VI]

That sounds like a real possibility. Years ago, my grandfather bought Striker sport fisherman that did not have opposite rotation. He only kept the boat 4 months. It can be a real bear to maneuver.

 

[ADaily3224]

Odd situation:

I don't think it's operator error. I think something is wrong with the boat.

I would call the broker or previous owner and try to gather some additional information.
1. Were the transmissions out of the boat or replaced?
2. New shafts or props recently?
3. Transmissions re-geared, reduction gear changed?
4. One or both engines rebuilt or replaced?

You may want to check to see if the transmission clutch cable is shifting at the transmission into the proper quadrant, i.e. Forward = Forward, not reverse, sounds really stupid but I guess it could happen. Is there excessive noise, transmission noise?

If the props are installed backwards the boat when put into gear will go backward unless something else has been reversed. The only other thing I can think of is both engines are turning in the same direction and someone put two of the same props on the boat and all it wants to do is crab sideways when you are trying to maneuver. It may run OK at 8 or 9 MPH because you are compensating with the rudders. Do you have a rudder indicator? Take it out of it's slip and into open water, put it in neutral, and center the wheel, either with the rudder indicator or just a lock to lock estimate. Put it in gear, if it doesn't go straight you may have a problem. It's almost impossible trying to diagnose a situation like this by reading about it although your post was very well written. Someone will figure this out.

Tony D

 

[jim rosenthal]

They keyway and taper dictate which way the props face- they can only go on the shaft one way. However, they can get put on the wrong shaft, with evil consequences. A "normal" boat- ie, one in which the shafts do not turn in the same direction, assuming both gears are set for the boat to go forward- would have the shafts turning in such a way that the top of the wheel rotated outwards. (Chapman's is my reference on this, and Dave Gerr as well). A pair of props for a boat with opposite rotating SHAFTS would be a right-handed and left handed set, one of each.
GMv53s do not come in right and left rotation as far as I know, although I suppose it is possible. Far more likely is that you have gears that can be run in either direction. From the age of the boat I would guess they are Twin Disc or Paragon or possibly Capitol gears. I know from my own vessels that TD and ZF gears can be run full speed in either direction. There are a number of smaller gears, notably BW Velvet DRives, in which case only limited power can be applied with the gear in reverse. Such applications DO demand a pair of clockwise and counterclockwise engines, such as my old 454 Chevy/Mercruisers in my 36 boat before I got diesels.
If your pair of props were installed reversed left to right, your boat would travel backwards in "FWD" and vice versa. That is not the case- sometimes she behaves, sometimes not. What is more likely is that you are having difficulty setting the rudder amidships, that the rudders may not be toed correctly (although this would have minimal effect on low speed handling if any at all) or, worst of all:
You DO have similar rotating engines, and the gears are set up so that in forward gear both shafts rotate in the same direction. In order to do this and have the boat go forward you would need identical props left and right- in other words, you would have the SAME setup port and starboard. What this would produce at low speeds is substantial paddle-wheel effect in the direction AWAY from the shaft rotation. I have never heard of such a setup and can't imagine why one would exist, but no doubt there's one out there somewhere. I would suspect that if that is the case it did not come from the factory that way.
That would produce a pronounced "handedness" to low-speed maneuvers that would be to some extent cancelled by forward velocity at cruise. Such a boat would be reasonable to drive in forward but very difficult to maneuver and dock at low speeds, ESPECIALLY if the wind and current didn't favor the boat's limited capabilities and idiosyncratic manners. And, it would be quite different indeed from its' twin-screw normally set-up predecessor.
Let us know what you find out. I find puzzles of this type very interesting, although I must admit I am not usually the one finding the solution.

 

[SEAWISE]

Spartonboat1 wrote…..
”However, maybe two props were reversed side to side, stbd to port and vice versa, or possibly two RH or LH props were both mounted. Again, since props are usually (always) stamped RH and LH, hard to believe. But, given some of the yard workers I have encountered over the years, no way would I be surprised if two RH or LH props were both mounted up, instead of a set of a RH and LH prop”

I see I did not make it clear. The props are not installed “backwards” as I stated in the post. You are right Spartonboat1 they are reversed. I did a poor job of commutating my thoughts and I stand corrected. The port prop is on then starboard shaft and the starboard prop is mounted on the port shaft. I can think of several scenarios that could have lead up this. At sometime during this 1967 41c’s almost 40 years of being a boat, I am sure she sat as some boat yard having work done on it. Ownership could have changed, I have seen them change hands several time while on the hard. The owners dies, or the owners fires his mechanic, boat yard fires his help. Mechanic leaves unexpectedly and someone else has to take up where somebody left off. Anyway let’s suppose that somewhere along the line of events the props were “reversed” mistakes happen. Then when the boat was put back in the water, now this might have been two or three years later, another owner, who knows. At this time the vessel was put back into service it was found that the boat operates backwards. “Who ever where ever” thinks a minute, and says, these shifter look kinda new I’ll just bet that some dummy somewhere down the line before I worked on this boat, has installed new shifters and has hooked up the shift linkage backwards. A simple 30 minute job and the cables are repositioned. So now you have a boat that has the props “reversed” and the shifters “reversed” and obviously the transmissions are running in reverse in order to move the boat forward. Now understand I don’t know if this is what happened and I have not had time to check it out. But it is a possibility.

Garyd wrote…..
"If the 41 is like most Hats it has a keel. The best thought you can have is akin to a sailboat. Get the keel going in the direction you want then manuever the ship. You will not slide a keel boat much.

The other thing you should become familiar with is using the wheel to help dock the boat. Most people say to leave the wheel alone, yes it can cause a novice to get into trouble. But as you gain more experience you need to use the wheel. In some cases you have to use the wheel. If you are trying to dock a large realitively light boat without using the wheel it can be a difficult if not impossible task."

Gary the 41c has a fairly long and full keel and is some what a lot like a modified trawler hull. My 34c on the other hand flattens out more in the rear portion of the boat. And handles and maneuvers very good in all situations. And you are also correct, most say leave the wheel alone, use the engines only on a twin screw, but if you need to “crab” the boat, rudders are a big help. But for the most part I do leave them along and can manage normal situations without them.

Most boats would respond as follows. No wind or current and the boat is sitting dead in the water rudders strait ahead. You want to put the boat in the slip head first. You are lined up with the slip. But you need to swing the bow to the right just a little. Bump the starboard shifter ahead for a second. Obviously every boat is different but this will usually do one or two things, the bow will move to starboard, the stern will move to port, or a little of both will happen. If you need a more definite bow to starboard movement and you don’t want to move ahead any, you would have placed the starboard shifter into reverse at the same time. Under the same set of circumstances outlined above this 41 would do the following. Port shifter placed into forward. She will move ahead, strait! If you want the bow to swing to starboard you must place the starboard sifter into reverse and the stern will slowly pull to port. And even then the bow has stayed mostly fixed. But to get any side movement you must run the starboard engine up to 1000 or 1300 rpm’s to get a reaction. Otherwise she will go strait ahead. I have found in the brief time I have had with her, she handles better backing down than ahead. I am no expert but I am thinking that because the props are reversed and I believe the bottom portion of the prop has more “bite” that this is offsetting the reaction you would normally experience. i.e. normally with the port prop in forward motion, the bottom of the prop would tend to pull the stern to port. With the prop reversed, it seems that it would tend to pull the stern to the starboard. And counter act normal reaction.

I think there are several good points brought up. Jim’s may be real close to what is happening. And I might add that the props are for a counter rotation. One LH and one RH. I will just have to take it one step at a time and see. I just find it hard to believe she is this bad at slow speed handling without some reason.

One other thing we all know how hard it is to explain things like this by typing. And I am the worlds worst at this sort of thing. So I suppose I need to get back to the boat and find the answers to some of the questions that have been poised. Just be thinking about it and I will update after this weekend.

I just have to say one more thing. You guys are the best at trying to help out other folks. And this forum is a great place to come with a problem. Just a few short years ago, before computers this would not have been possible.

Thanks
cy

 

[Genesis]

If the props are reversed, and the gears are a make that can run full-speed in either direction, then you can change the gear selector quadrant around, change the props, and you're back to how God intended twin-screw boats to run.

However, that may or may not solve the problem - depending on why its happening. Quite honestly, I doubt very much that having the wheels and gears reversed is at issue here, although if that is the case and can be easily corrected, I would do it.

What MAY be going on is that this boat may have highly aggressive wheels - that is, lots of cupping. This often results in some really bizarre behavior at low speed because the screw in reverse doesn't "hook up" well at all. This tends to make things real squirrelly until you get used to it - the usual medicine is to add a bit of power to the screw operating in reverse, and sometimes to crab the wheel a bit.

If I had a few minutes with her around the dock I could probably figure out what was up.... I'm assuming you didn't observe anything amiss when she was in the slings when she was out last, yes? (e.g. rudder damage, etc)

 

[MikeP]

CY...now I'm really confused. You said that a boat will normally respond this way: "Bump the starboard shifter ahead for a second. Obviously every boat is different but this will usually do one or two things, the bow will move to starboard, the stern will move to port, or a little of both will happen."

But that's the opposite of what normally happens in every twin screw boat I have owned/operated - with rudder centered, if you put the starboard (right) tranny ahead (the left tranny in neutral), the boat will move forward and turn to the left - that is, the bow will move to the PORT, the stern will move to the starboard.

Do you KNOW that all this faulty prop/improper installation stuff was done or are you making the assumption because of the way the boat seems to be handling? As I said before, the symptoms are classic for "rudder in the wrong position." Are you SURE that the rudders are properly aligned and centered when the boat is going straight ahead at low speed?

 

[jim rosenthal]

I agree with Mike....when I want the bow to swing to stbd, I would either bump the port throttle ahead, the stbd in reverse, or both if I really needed a lot. I believe most propellers work better in forward, so probably the port ahead to nudge the bow to the right, or stbd. Sy, did you have a TIA for a second?
Also, the beam of the 34 boat is proportionally wider compared to the 41. That means she will more easily swing- the prop is acting further off the centerline, so the moment arm is greater (if I have the terminology correct). Don't shoot me if I'm not exactly on the money with this...

 

[SEAWISE]

Mike and Jim
Your right, I meant to say "bump the port shifter ahead for a second" not starboard. sorry for the confusion. I dont know what a TIA is, but at this point I will use any excuse I can grab.
Genesis
I did not see what I consider "excessive cup" when I looked at the props. The props were clean as were the shafts. Nothing out of the ordinary other than the props were reversed.
I am glad to see that "some" transmissions can be reversed without any difficulty. I may simply need to reinstall the props correctly and reverse the shifter linkage to solve the problem. Are at least make her behave a little better.

 

[garyd]

Since she has a long and deep keel, again you need to think more along the lines of a sailboat. You need to get the keel going in the direction you want then go, it works in either direction.

Think about a sailboat docked with a strong breeze amidship, say with a 40' mast. As you watch them depart they get the keel going in the direction they want, then go. This is IMOP the secrect to running the hats with deep long keels. Keep the vessel moving use momentum to your benefit. Don't stop dead in the water and then try to push her where you want her to go, pretend she's your wife. LOL

If you watch the old salts with keel boats they keep them moving. As soon as you have water traveling the length of the keel you have stability. This stability can work for you or against you.

Again using the rudder to help posistion the keel is IMOP very important. I use it every time! It makes you look good.

I recently helped a 43dc along the dock with a quick moving current. As several of us jumped on the next boat down fending off, I could tell he was a little concerned. I slowly explained the keel deal then gave instructions exactly the opposite of what he was use to, but he complied. Once we got the keel pointed away from the dock and lined up with open water we turned him loose with the command get it moving. He did so, no big deal.

If your a skier a keel boat should carve a turn and will weather you like it or not.

How do you get into the slip you ask? Think along the lines of carving that turn bow first into the slip. It doesn't have to be super fast. If your going to back in pull forward then immediately get the water moving along the keel in reverse point the keel where you want to go and she will take you there.

Quite frankly once you get used to the keel you will love it, we all do!

have fun boating garyd.

 

[SEAWISE]

Mike wrote.
"Do you KNOW that all this faulty prop/improper installation stuff was done or are you making the assumption because of the way the boat seems to be handling?
Mike
Yup, they are reversed. I know this because I did it. Let me explain a little further. The props were removed buy a mechanic at the marina before they put her on the truck in Port Huron Mi. Now I was not there. But the The mechanic that did remove them made a note that they were installed “reversed” and sent word to me via the truck driver. Now if the driver had not told me that I would have put them on in the normal position. And of course would have been in for a bit of a surprise when I was read to leave the boat yard. Now also understand if this had happened, I probably would have assumed that I had connected the shifters backwards and would have changed them at the shifter, therein I would have solved the problem and never even knew there was a problem.

Mike wrote
As I said before, the symptoms are classic for "rudder in the wrong position." Are you SURE that the rudders are properly aligned and centered when the boat is going straight ahead at low speed?
Mike
To answer you question about rudder alignment. Yes they would have been reasonable close. I don’t have rudder indicators but they would have been within a few degrees of a strait ahead position. Normally that is one of the last things I do before entering a marina. Normally I will not adjust the rudder position again unless I need to make an unusual maneuver. Sometimes while negotiating a long finger pier, or a no wake zone I will use one engine to move ahead and in order to maintain my course I will compensated with a radical rudder correction. As we all know there are so many variables while boating. But while actually putting her into a slip 99% of the time I don’t use the rudders. It has been my experience, at lease with the boats I have owned that the "props only" would do what I need to do. The only boat I ever had that was an exception to this was also the largest I have ever owned. I had a 57’ Trumpy “FREEDOM” that really liked to be handled and responded well to rudder position during docking. I suspect many of the larger boats are like that.