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Gas engine brain teaser - Experts?

  • Thread starter Thread starter SeaEric
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SeaEric

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Survey sea trial today on a twin gas powered motoryacht. 454's fresh water cooled ran fine, no overheating on the IR gun, all temps normal EXCEPT: IR gun on the remote mounted oil filters shows oil temp at the spin-on filters is different port to stbd by 70-90 degrees. Port engine oil filter temp is like 195 and stbd engine oil filter temp is 105 to 125. Both oil filters are the same spin on remote mounted in virtually the same location on the front of the engines. All other temps are the same, engine to engine and side to side, even at the oil pans. So why would one oil filter be so much cooler?
 
Survey sea trial today on a twin gas powered motoryacht. 454's fresh water cooled ran fine, no overheating on the IR gun, all temps normal EXCEPT: IR gun on the remote mounted oil filters shows oil temp at the spin-on filters is different port to stbd by 70-90 degrees. Port engine oil filter temp is like 195 and stbd engine oil filter temp is 105 to 125. Both oil filters are the same spin on remote mounted in virtually the same location on the front of the engines. All other temps are the same, engine to engine and side to side, even at the oil pans. So why would one oil filter be so much cooler?

Where the oil coolers and are they counter rotating?
 
Oil cooler thermostat on one engine stuck open?
 
Is there a difference in hose length between the cooler and the filter from side to side? If one side is less distance from the cooler or possibly one is plumbed prior to cooler (the normal temp one) and the other is after the cooler (the cool one) is why you might see this. The best method I have used is check temp with the IR gun at water inlet to the pump and outlet of the exchanger. If one engine is producing more heat it may have issues.It also tells the condition of the exchangers (same inlet temp and higher outlet temp). if oil pan temp is close 5-10 degrees that is all I would be concerned with. Please let us know.:cool:
 
Like what Scott said, clean the oil coolers.
 
Who changed the IR gun reading from F to C between measurements? :)
I'm being only partly facetious... Check the IR gun for consistency

Seriously...

I assume there are no actual engine oil temp gauges on the helms or in the engine rooms.

An external IR reading to get oil temp is not reliable at all as an actual temp of the oil HOWEVER, I agree that if you are taking a reading at the same spot on two engines that are both showing approximately the same coolant temp, and have been running for the same length of time under the same load, one would expect the temps in the spot in question to be similar.

Frankly, for the oil temp to be as low as indicated in the cooler measurement seems almost impossible with both engines at the same temp/load/running time.

Obviously, as mentioned, if there are oil coolers, they may require servicing. Also as mentioned, if the filters are at different distances from the engine they may show different temps for that reason.

To compare temps, the IR gun must shoot the exact same spot, at the same distance and same angle for both engines. If it was convenient to get close to one but shoot the other from several feet, there could be dramatic differences. If there is a laser pointer, remember that the temp reading is NOT at the laser dot. The laser dot shows the center (hopefully, if it is accurately made/aligned) of the "measurement cone". The further away, the wider the cone and the more of the adjacent or background surface temp is included in the measurement. For example, if half the cone is on an item that is 200F and the other half of the cone is on an item that is 100F, the temp displayed will be something between the two.

OK...FWIW, The purpose of the check of the oil filter temp would only be as a comparison between the engines for "general awareness" because if you told me that the oil temps were as described, I'd be looking for an engine cooling problem (too low) because even the high one is too low. However, based on where it was measured, it IS likely that the actual oil temp in the engine on the high one is in a reasonable range...around 220F would be good. But the other is much too low - so low as to make me question the IR gun or a difference in how they filters were "shot."

To be honest, an oil temp check like that is not a "normal" kind of diagnostic and I wouldn't personally do that sort of test. The only accurate way to measure coolant or oil temps is with a sensor mounted in the coolant/oil flow in the engine. Under any normal operating conditions, if the engine coolant temp is within spec, the oil temp will follow. IOW, in my view, you have found a "problem" that didn't need to be looked for! ;) But now it has to be dealt with in some way since it is part of the survey.

But, since you have the disparate readings, I'd probably do this: Start the engines and, if you can go out, run them under the same load, until they are at operating temp THEN...shoot the oil pans at the same spot I suspect your temps will be pretty close. THEN shoot those filters again, BUT just for grins.. because it doesn't matter what they show! ;)
 
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Where the oil coolers and are they counter rotating?

They are counter rotating. I asked about oil coolers and the surveyor said there aren't any (which didn't make sense). He said there are trans coolers, no engine oil coolers. Not sure that's correct. Lines to the remote filters look to be identical.
 
I suspect the surveyor is correct and that there are no oil coolers, only transmission coolers. Most US V8 gas engines don't use oil coolers. Any I have seen were aftermarket...and not needed anyway. ;)
 
Mike P, We did all of that. Oil pan temp is the same on both engines. I even used the surveyors gun and shot the oil filters myself at the same spot on each, even paying attention to the plumbing to shoot in the same spot on both. Now - about his IR gun: It did not have a red "dot" projecting like mine does. Not sure if it's burned out or what. I found that strange. When I asked he said "oh don't pay attention to the dot". That was easy as there wasn't one. All other temps shot everywhere on both of these engines was the same or within a reasonable range of comparison except the oil filters.
 
Every 454 I have seen has a trans cooler and a oil cooler. What brand is it?
 
Another surveyor that I trust, with a previous lengthy background in engine mechanics, speculated a clogged oil filter or failing oil line that is perhaps slowing down the oil flow on the "cooler" engine.
 
Every 454 I have seen has a trans cooler and a oil cooler. What brand is it?

Boat is a 1972. She was repowered in 1993 with new out of the box Indmar 454's. 600 hours since new. Starboard engine which has the low oil temp was overhauled a few years and 100 hours ago due to some failure. Story is that this engine had to be overhauled twice because the first guy "didn't do it right". I don't know the details on that.
 
Well, here's the only thing I can come up with based on the info that pan temps are about the same:

Change the oil filters; if one of them is clogged, the oil bypass is activated and that would essentially eliminate flow in the filter. The cool one is the suspect. The flow in the SYSTEM is not affected which is the reason for a bypass valve and the reason that the pan temps/oil pressure is OK even with a clogged filter.

Re oil coolers: I apologize, when I said oil coolers were not common in US V8s I was thinking of automotive v8's NOT those v8s in marine service. :(
 
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If it turns out that the cool motor filter is clogged/collapsed, it would then indicate that a filter temp check is a smart thing to do. I had never thought about that until now but obviously, if there is no oil flowing through the body of the filter, the temp would be lower. I might start shooting the IR gun at oil filters from now on! :)

Eric, I'll be REALLY interested to know what happens if you change the filters!!!!
 
Me Too as I had not thought of the filter bypass and that would cause the problem:cool:
 
Boat is a 1972. She was repowered in 1993 with new out of the box Indmar 454's. 600 hours since new. Starboard engine which has the low oil temp was overhauled a few years and 100 hours ago due to some failure. Story is that this engine had to be overhauled twice because the first guy "didn't do it right". I don't know the details on that.

Counter rotating engines may not always have the right components to begin with. If it's been rebuilt 2x since new (600 hours) I'd be concerned.
 
maybe like oil filter plumbed backwards?:cool:
 
Most modern counter rotating engines had a gear instead of a chain to spin the cam, distributor and oil pump in the same direction of the standard rotation motors.

The cooling system could be routed wrong but more likely not. If both engines are plumbed the same that's not it.
 
Today we changed the oil filter on the engine that had the cooler oil filter temp. We ran the engines at the dock, not under load. Both engines came up to operating temp as proven with an IR gun on the thermostat housing showing + or - 160 degrees. The temp difference on the oil filters is now lower, between 35 and 60 degrees with the Stbd engine oil filter temp still running cooler than the Port. Is the oil by-pass located in the oil filter housing that the filter threads on to? How does that work? Is there a spring in there that could have it stuck open so it keeps by passing even after the filter was changed? Do we need to take that off/apart and look in there or should I "malletize" it? This continues to be a bit of a mystery.
 

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