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I'm baffled by some of the replies....particularly those challenging the proprietor!

It all seems pretty simple to me. This thread started with a statement from the owner and provider of this service, letting us know what course he wants his forum to follow.

I really don't sign up to idea that forums are democracies and free speech should rule. I see this site as a private property, belonging to SAM's, and "get" the idea that the content can be considered by some (customers, sponsors, affiliates) as a direct reflection of the site owner. I don’t feel I have any “right” to post here, particularly about “off” topics, I’m just happy to have the privilege to participate.

I don’t always agree with the moderators, but I do appreciate the work they do and having run a BBS (old school forum), understand how thankless the job is.

My plan is to comply with Doug's wishes, enthusiastically, as I value the forum far more for its Hatteras and boating content than for the political discourse, even if I do enjoy the debate and tossing my 2 cents in on those threads occasionally.

There are plenty of other places we can debate the issues of the day. Perhaps Randy would accommodate that in his sandbox…..If that’s not good enough, forum software is open source (free) and hosting is pretty cheap these days, in some cases free. I haven't checked, but I'll hazard a guess that www.hatterasownerangst.com is available.
 
Glad to see that I'm not the ONLY one Brian likes to stalk and attack. :P

Clearly the complaints about liberal views were directed at me...Im pretty sure I'm the only liberal HOF member. As I'm sure you've noticed...Im staying out of the political threads...the personal attacks got to be too much and I would fly off the handle and use language that was inappropriate. Its sad that i have to avoid parts of this forum because I am attacked on a personal level.

As for whether the site would loose viewers if politics was forbidden...that's simply not accurate. I'm a moderator on one of the largest automotive forums on the net...and we strictly forbid discussion of politics, political statements within other threads, and political statements within signatures...and it hasn't hurt us one bit. We also dont hesitate to ban users for violations of those rules or for personal attacks.
 
I know I am probably as guilty as anyone, re the political issue. We have dragged this issue around and around, lets give it up. Someone made an error in judgement an apparently has been banned. I don't think anyone should be expressing any kind of joy or happiness over it.

Who cares who started it, the fact is it went on too long and went too far.

Politics in the past have always been a taboo subject, along with religion. Today, people are paying more attention to politics than ever before. Discussing politics in one thing, losing ones cool and argueing over it is another.

I enjoy hearing other peoples opinions and views on different subjects, I will discuss most anything, but I will not argue or get hostile over it.

I'll cool my jets, let's everyone try to do the same.

Thanks,

C
 
Hmmmm! Stormy----I think you're a long way from being the "most liberal" person on this forum (politically speaking).

I have no hesitation in saying that there are a number of frequent posters in the Sandbar who all share a common perspective as it relates to "liberals" and their individual remarks seem to generate a feeding frenzy as though each must outdo the other in the "passionate" expression of their beliefs. Personally, I think many of the posts reflect incipient racism but I acknowledge that I consider attempts to parody "dialect" to be evidence of racism belonging in the same category as remarks to the effect that a particular race of people are particularly receptive to "hand-outs".

That does not generate a "free and open" exchange of ideas. It is inimical to such an exchange.

And I'm reasonably confident that the owner recognizes that his inaction might be seen not as tolerance; it might be perceived as quiet endorsement of those opinions.

There are a LOT of Sam's customers who might feel the same and their actual or potential custom might well exceed that generated by the small group who appear to see this forum as THEIR turf and THEIR medium for the exchange of venom.

As an aside, some of the "offenders" are the most informed and informative contributors in the Tech section!
 
I question that complaining, or worse, threatening to withold business from Sams, is fair or productive. It appears that complaints to the owner is what created the problem.

Sam's is an excellent business operation providing outstanding and needed service. I imagine that they will do as well as the economy will let them, with or without this site.

The site is an excellent resource and I have and hope to continue enjoying it. I gather that Brian has been "banned", and that truly disturbs me. He has been an asset to the forum and I appreciate his posts. His technical knowlege has contributed much more to the form than any instances where he expressed opinions with more emphasis than I might prefer. In addition, like many other occasionally abrasive members, he has gone out of his way to provide assistance to other members, without regard to their opinions.

Please, no more complaints to the management from either side.

Regards,
Vincent
 
Doug has made the rules clear.

Forums are not democracies. The person or entity paying the bills sets the rules. That enforcement has been lax (or worse) has resulted in a minority of people believing that personal attacks and the use of the forum as a political soapbox is somehow acceptable, even though it is clearly stated in the terms of service that it is not. Tolerance was tried, and clearly didn't work, so now that has changed.

Folks, Doug has made clear the fact that if you won't cut it out the Sandbar can and will disappear, or worse.

There are literally thousands of appropriate places to run that sort of schtick. This isn't one of them and there is no good answer for SAMS in responding to threats of "do it my way or I'll leave", as their PROPER RESPONSE as a business is likely to be to shut the thing down entirely, or at least close everything but the tech area and then enforce "tech only" with rabid zeal.

I do not speak for Doug but frankly if you don't see this as the outcome if the handful of you keep this up you simply haven't been paying attention. Doug has made quite clear that is EXACTLY what's coming if it doesn't stop.

I got another PM this evening from a long-time member here who has contributed a LOT to the forum since its inception. He has left, and specifically cited the handful of people who think they have the right to dictate to Sam's and Doug how to run the place and have leveled threats about SAM's business as part of their "leverage". He doesn't want to be associated with that.

This place isn't yours folks. It belongs to Sams and the political BS and personal attacks are now costing SAMS time and possibly business. They have no need for that, especially in this economic environment.

There are lots of places on the net where you can run that sort of thing, whether it be politics or bagging on people with wild abandon. If you see value in this place, don't do it here. If you don't see value here or worse, think you can and will mold Sams to do "your bidding" then don't be surprised if one of the mods issues at least a temporary ban as a means of making the point that the rough stuff has gone too far and has to stop.
 
It seems this has gone way beyond far enough. Repeated warnings, I for one sure get the message.

If I can make a suggestion, close this thread, if another one opens up like it. Address the people who endorse such rhetoric.

I'd like to see this thread, and the one with all the f bombs in it totally removed, both are terrible of examples of where people want this forum to go.

A few may get bent out of shape for removing said threads, IMO those would be the people most do not want to see here anyway.
 
This thread should remain open, at least for now, as Doug established it and I don't feel like going through and playing editor. Besides, there are some examples here that IMHO I believe people should think about.

However, I have killed a couple of the others and will not be sparse with doing so in the future, if the rules for this area (or elsewhere) are violated, nor will I be particularly sparse with at least timed "timeouts". The other mods won't either, I suspect.
 
This thread now has turned into the place where a handful of people believe they will influence changing the rules and/or attacking the people who Doug has running the joint - including Doug - when they don't get what they want.

If you have an issue with me or any other moderator take it to PM. Attempting to incite a mass action is destructive to the forum's purpose and is against the rules.

I have cleaned this thread up. I will leave it open for now, but if it reoccurs I will both remove the posts and lock the thread as that will indicate that the thread has run its essential purpose and now is being used for something else. The people involved, if it happens again, will also get a "time out" to join the one that I already issued.

The polemics and nasty garbage have no purpose in discussing boating, it is simply an attempt to make this "your place", complete with your political views. Well, it's not "your place", it's SAMS place and nobody (including me but excepting Doug) is indispensable. That sort of "stirring the pot" has always been against the rules here and Doug has decided to restate them and ask that they be enforced, not change them to conform with what has resulted in divisiveness and destruction of the camraderie that this forum was originally known for.

That enforcement can either come by your own decision to comply or it can come from enforcement. Everyone will be happier if it comes through your own decision and not the need for the moderators to remove posts and send posters to the corner, but until and unless Doug indicates otherwise I am going to enforce the rules as written.

I will cite the five sections of the rules that I am enforcing with these decisions and will continue to:

• Refrain from using vulgar or off-color language or posting offensive, racist or insulting messages. This forum is sponsored by Sam’s Marine and as a result, the forum content can reflect upon our company and to some degree that of the manufacturer. Your understanding and consideration of this fact is sincerely appreciated.
Click to expand...
'Nuff said. The threads that were instantly identified with a quick search as containing these things were removed.
• Please "try" to keep topics related to Hatteras and boating. Occasional digressions are quite OK, but they should be the exception and not the rule.
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Threads started for the purpose of political baiting were removed.
• Advertisements or public solicitations by vendors for goods or services are not allowed in the forums. Businesses within the Hatteras community are welcome and encouraged to participate and contribute to the discussions at hand, but flagrant advertisements and solicitations are not allowed.
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A link in one's signature to their home page is acceptable - per the black letter of the rules. Advertising one's services within the forum as a response to a question is not. Attempting to twist what the rule says for the purpose of incitement violates the next section.
• If a conflict arises with another member - TAKE IT OFFLINE. The forum and the Sandbar is meant to be a place where members of the Hatteras community can help one another - not a place for public controversy.

• Bashing of vendors or members is prohibited.
Click to expand...
Attempting to incite "mob action" in any of its forms will not be tolerated.


This is what it says folks.

I didn't make the rules but it is my job to help enforce them.
 
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Wow 5 pages and still going of he said she said I did it I didn't do it!

Slow learners as said these are and have been the rules I think it is great Doug spoke up but also ashamed he even had too.
 
Political garbage is in the general case off limits.

I would argue (and will if and when the time comes) that if there is a specific political proposal that impacts boating, for instance when there are discussions of banning Lectrasans or should the "Yacht Tax" make a reappearance, that this is on topic.

However, before someone says "but there's always an angle to politics that could affect boating" as a means of circumventing this rule I will note there is nothing currently on the table that fits the description as I interpret it and as it appears DOUG interprets it, and even when it does, it is extremely difficult to have a discussion or debate on that topic without it degenerating into name-calling and similar things which are out-of-bounds even if "on topic."

The closest thing in the present tense is the "Asian Carp" thread, which has political overtones but also is, in fact, about boaters - including Hatteras owners in the Great Lakes, and at it's core is not (primarily) a political issue.

"I'm good you're bad" is not acceptable either folks. Cut it out!
 
Hey, I couldn't resist any longer chiming in on this one. I've been on this site for about 15 months, and while I don't post much or very often I very much enjoy reading what others that are much more "Hatteras Intellegent" than I post. Like Stormy, I consider myself a "liberal" and therefore in the minority on this forum, but I enjoy reading the comments and the banter and I understand that grown men (and women for that matter) can and do disagree on all matters especially political ones. For the most part the exchange is innocent and entertaining, and I would hate to see it go away. I can't always listen to O'Reilly or Hannity or Beck so I get my dose of right wing, tea party views on here. Keep it up, but keep it clean and respectful.
 
Foley is a liberal? I guess the cost to move his boat just went up! :D

Karl, I really do hate to stir the pot on this one, but I think more than one of us is confused about making political posts. You seem to be saying one thing while Doug has said another. Perhaps he can come back on and clarify what he meant with his statement. I took it as meaning he just wants us to do it in a civil manner, but maybe not.

administrator said:
As a result, I've considered several options. Among them being:


- prohibiting all political threads (which I do not want to do)


I've decided that for the time being, I am simply going to ask once again for everyone to conduct themselves as adults, be civil, stop the he said - she said nonsense, re-read the forum guidelines below and adhere to them.
Click to expand...
 
Randy, you know darn well what Doug means.

I see ZERO evidence here (or anywhere else) that political threads in the general sense can be conducted without people calling names and otherwise behaving like they're three year olds in daycare beating each other over the head with toy dinosaurs.

The few instances where politics are directly related to boating interests are clearly an exception, and why Doug would prefer not to ban them outright. I happen to fully agree with him in that I'm reasonably certain that at some point in the future, perhaps not far in the future, an actual political fight related to actual boating will appear that will merit discussion, debate, and perhaps organization.

This does not extend to the general "left/right" nonsense that has made up, for all intents and purposes, all of the previous political "discourse."

If you, or anyone else, decides to try to see how far they can push the envelope you will find the answer is "about one millimeter further than you already have."

I have it on good authority that there is STRONG pushback aimed at simply closing The Sandbar entirely and permanently, largely as a direct and proximate consequence of both these threads and the "response" to Doug by certain forum members on THIS thread.

I am not in charge of the decision to close (or not) this part of the forum and my efforts here are intended to stave that change off. The attempt to keep this part of the forum around will not succeed if the attempts to shave the rules to suit the personal desires of those who wish to try to find a corner they can play "wedge" with continue.

Such a decision, once made, will almost certainly be irrevocable and will come from SAM's upper management. I have sat in the left seat before and I know exactly how CEOs/Owners tend to approach such matters - once a decision of this sort is made the discussion is over.

I have acted as I have in this thread in an attempt to make certain this point is abundantly clear and cannot possibly be misunderstood. If you have not seen plenty of evidence to understand the clear intent of Doug's position at this point in this thread it is because you're intentionally refusing to recognize it, not because there is really any honest debate about what was both said and intended.

If you like and want The Sandbar here you and the others who have agitated in this form and fashion will cease and desist, now and forward, because if you don't it will disappear. It's that simple and I see no purpose in explaining it again.
 
Sorry Karl, but I really didn't know how Doug felt as it seemed to be a little ambiguous. That was the only reason I brought it up and it certainly wasn't meant as a challenge to either of you. I'll just bow out of this one now and see what happens.
 
At the risk of being banned...I feel I must speak my peace.

When I woke up this morning I felt as if the floor had dropped out on me...as if I had lost my husband yesterday. Unfortunately it only got worse when I got on here to find out that some members are in "time out!"
This is a GREAT forum!!! I love it. I feel as if we are family and like ALL families we don't always agree with each other. thats ok, its supposed to be like that.
But yesterday when Brian was banned I felt the slap in the face. Brian has contributed SOO much to this forum. It hurts that a member of our family is gone. I feel his loss.
Then to hear that some members are in time out??? Is this kindergarten??? that really got me right in the gut today. To hear that they had been suspended for awhile would of been more in the tune of adualts speaking.
I realize this is an accumulation of multiple episodes that has grown larger and appearred to be a cancer that needed cut out. But there are less invasive ways to do this now.
Yesterday and maybe even today....PM's were exchanged, nasty words were spoken....some on here. Phone calls were exchanged. Members have left voluntarily over all of the BS.
I came on here today to rant and rave and tell off some people but I am not going to do that. What I am going to do is just watch and see if this all resolves itself and if we can go back to being a GREAT forum. I truely believe that this forum can offer something for ALL of us. If you don't like the thred then don't read it and we won't have anymore childish arguments.
I would like to say in closing that I would like to see Brian back here again as the great, knowledgeable boater he is. Thanks, ppat
 
None of the current bans are permanent.

Anyone who draws a second one will find the second one IS permanent, without exception.

Occasionally and most unfortunately asking someone to cut it out doesn't work and you have to go further.

For what it's worth I got a phone call this afternoon from a guy I helped BUY a Hatteras a couple of years ago. He's part of a loose group - all Hatt owners - who have collectively refused to participate here as a direct result of the BS.

He called me just to let me know he "saw" what was going on - and that, if it continues, it might change his and others behavior.

That would be widely seen as good, right?
 
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I dont know how I would answer that.
Part of what makes this forum so great is the diverse people on here. We come from all parts of the world...black, white, chinese it doesn't matter.Some are Republicans, Democrats and some just dont care.
We all share one common ground... our LOVE of Boating!!! I think if we all just remember that then it will be fine.
As with any family we will fight. If ya dont like what the topic is then dont join in. If the topic is to far out in left field then curb it if you can. We all have to work together to keep this the place to connect.
I dont like certain people here. Thats ok... I just try to stay out of their way. I don't want them to leave or be banned. I respect the right they have to be different than me and have different views. This is America!!
I hope that we can continue to grow. Not just the membership here but each and everyone of us to use this forum for the purpose it was created. A database of knowledge. A wealth of information.
I think I will end this now... Willy is cooking me Shrimp for dinner and nothing is better than his Shrimp!!!! ppat ( group hugs everyone)
 
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