ethanol related issue?

[Genesis]

RFG is known to have MAJOR stability problems which stabilizers DO NOT ADDRESS.

The problem is the oxygenates (ethanol) in the blend.

I had a power washer which sat for about three months with gas in it. When I tried to use it the next time the needle seat was completely fouled in the carb and the result was a massive fuel blowback out of the carb and all over the road - good thing it didn't get lit or the entire thing would have gone up like a bomb.

Upon disassembly I found the culprit - the fuel had deteriorated producing some of the most incredible gunk to the point that the needle in the float would not seat. I had to take the entire carb apart and clean all the gunk out of it.

This with a PLASTIC tank, which was intact - it was definitely the decomposition of the fuel.

I've seen gasoline varnish and gunk up, but never with that kind of speed.

Oh, this fuel was "stabilized" too (I put StaBil in all my "power tool" fuel, since at times they sit for a while between uses)

Ethanol-blended fuel is not to be trusted much beyond its delivery date into your tank.....

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

genisis:
what did the crud in the carb look like? color , consistency?

 

[Genesis]

genisis:
what did the crud in the carb look like? color , consistency?

Dark and nasty; looked kinda like semi-cured epoxy resin. It was ALL OVER the internal parts of the carb, with the salient issue being that a piece of it was expertly placed in the needle seat such that the float could not shut off the gas flow into the bowl.

I was able to get it off with brake cleaner and a toothbrush, and ran roughly two cans of brake cleaner through the internal parts of the carb where I couldn't get a brush. That cleaned it up but it was a hell of a job.

BTW had the same general sort of problem with the lawn mower, but it manifested differently (wouldn't start) - proved to be the same basic issue - nasty crap in the carb.

The shocker for me was that this happened with gasoline that WAS stabilized. If not and it had sat over a winter or something I would have understood - but in this case the gas didn't sit all that long and it DID have stabilizer in it.

I would not be surprised at all if this is the same basic issue.....

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

i'm taking you're "semi cured epoxy" to be pretty close to permatex gasket maker consistency. would that be a fair comparison?

 

[Genesis]

Yeah, that'd be about right....

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

think 2 427 fords, 1 with 0 hours on rebuild with that mess throughout the intake manifold, carb and freezing the intake valves. thats me and others. just like "NO DOUBT" thought he was alone in his misery, i did too until posting here. just another example of how this site is an invaluable resource.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Early this year I was informed by my gasoline supplier that we would be getting ethanol fuel (at our retail gas station that we own and operate). They were very concerned about the switch-over and wanted to make sure that I didn't have any water in the tanks that could lead to phase separation. They also wanted me to have the tanks professionally cleaned before delivery of the new product because the tendency of the ethanol to loosen up all of the crud on the sides of the tank. So, I paid the $500 for tank cleaning and then had the 10% ethanol blend delivered. Next, I find out that the ethanol fuel also requires different filters at the dispensor. My regular 10 micron filters were plugging up due to the ethanol. I had to switch to a new filter that was specifically rated for ethanol fuel. Now, the supplier is still worried about phase separation and has given us a new water detection paste to stick the tanks with to look for any signs of water.

I don't know if this info is of any help, but I thought you might like to know what has been going on from a retailers perspective.

Also, these are FRP tanks and lines.

 

[captddis]

I have the crud in my galvanized tanks on my old Chris. I loaded them up with cleaner that was supposed to dissolve the gum. It did not touch it! Only bad smelling gas came out. When I put the tube to the bottom to pump it out it would stop pumping. I had to raise the tube up off the bottom. I scraped some brown gooey crud off the bottom, brake cleaner would not cut it nor would carb cleaner. Any ideas to break it up? If not I will pull the tanks and try to clean and if not possible will replace tanks. As it is now can not run off stbd. tank for more than a couple min. If the boat is not run for a couple weeks, the carbs gum up and am always fouling plugs. Have also had problems with the fuel pump valves gumming up as well. When I get the tank problem resolved and rebuild carbs and tune up, I only plan to put in the amount of fuel that will be used at a time. Would welcome any ideas to break up the goo. Thanks,
Dave

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

if your carbs are gummed pull them and check the intake manifolds, it will be in there also. it sounds as if you have access to the inside of the tanks thru an access port of some sort. i would pump the tanks and put keorosene in. mix it up, then pump that out.

 

[No Doubt]

Hello all,

I spoke with Boat US today. They have a representative assigned to this problem. I was told that there will be information in the next issue of SeaWorthy with a follow up article in the January issue. The problem seems to be isolated to the Tri-state area. Long Island is particularly involved seemingly because of our 10% ethanol content in the fuel. Other parts of the country have less 2-5%. The Boat US rep was fairly confident that the resin in the glass tanks is breaking down. He told me that he has confirmed reports of a very limited number of glass tanks leaking. The biggest problem seems to be that most of the information that these people have (ie Boat US and Hatteras) is gleaned from us! So I'm not sure, who's informing who? I still haven't talked with anyone who has actually taken their tank out and inspected it internally. Does anyone have first hand information, so that we can confirm that the resin is actually breaking down? Then we can finally get to work trying to rectify the problem. Until then, I feel like I'm spinning my wheels (or props if you prefer) and going nowhere. Unique, I left you a phone msg. How's your engines holding up? How's the fuel look?

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

no doubt:
i've been on vacation since last tuesday, just got back. will call you.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

from a new zealand energy website championing the introduction of ethanol to their masses:

Not for use in aircraft
In New Zealand, the Civil Aviation
Authority strongly recommends
ethanol-blended petrol is not used
in aircraft. In the United States, it
is banned in aircraft.
Not for use in boats
Ethanol-blended petrol is not
suitable for use in marine
applications.


Not recommended for use in customised vehicles or with
non-standard parts.
Materials used in customised vehicles may not be compatible
with ethanol-blended petrol unless special attention has
been given to the choice of fuel system components. Extra
care needs to be taken with these vehicles.
For example – fuel tank leaks have been reported from
overseas in vehicles where the original fuel tanks were
replaced with customised fibreglass tanks. In this case, the
resin used in the fibreglass was found to be not compatible
with ethanol.
Not for use in aircraft
Aircraft fuel tanks normally vent to the air and aircraft can
be left for a time between use. There is therefore a risk that
water can enter the fuel system and the ethanol-blended
petrol could phase-separate, with potentially disastrous
consequences.
Also, the tolerance of ethanol-blended petrol to water content
reduces as temperatures fall. A fuel that appears clear and
bright on the ground may phase-separate at cooler
temperatures at altitude – again, with potentially disastrous
consequences.
Not for use in boats
Ethanol-blended petrol is not suitable for use in marine
applications. In boats and other water craft there is a greater
risk that ethanol-blended petrol will be contaminated with
water – through general splashing, large waves or poor fuel
handling. This contamination could have grave consequences
where the boat is used in open water.
Further, not all outboard manufacturers recommend the use
of ethanol-petrol blends and there may be engine warranty
issues if ethanol blends are used in engines from these
manufacturers.

 

[34Hatt]

Well Jim that seems to sum it up. That is everything we have all learned the HARD WAY! I know the Boat US guy was going to Bob Russells this past Thursday I will call him and see how it went.

 

[Pascal]

Here is a press release from Boat US , just posted on their site:


BOATU.S. SAFETY ALERT:

NEWLY REFORMULATED GASOLINE WITH ETHANOL COULD RUPTURE

OLD FIBERGLASS GAS TANKS

Explosion Hazard and Significant Engine Damage Evidenced on Large, Older
Vessels

Older fiberglass fuel tanks may fail as a result of recent gasoline
reformulations that are using increased concentrations of the fuel additive
ethanol.

BoatU.S. believes that as a result of industry-wide changes in fiberglass
resin formulations in the mid 1980's, the problem appears to be limited to
tanks manufactured prior to this date. Diesel fuel systems are not
affected. The fiberglass fuel tanks in question were standard equipment on
some Hatteras, Bertram and possibly other boats. While the investigation is
still in the preliminary stage, BoatU.S. believes that reformulations made
to gasoline in the Long Island Sound area that replaced MTBE (Methyl
Tertiary-Butyl Ether) in late 2004 with a 10% concentration of ethanol is
causing the additive to "attack" the resin in the old fiberglass tanks. The
results are weakened tank walls and bottoms with the potential to leak.
Anytime gasoline leaks into the bilge, there is a significant risk of an
explosion.

BoatU.S. has confirmed reports of tank wall failure in which gasoline was
found leaking into the bilge. It also has reports of a tar-like substance -
possibly created from the chemical reaction between the older fiberglass
resin and ethanol - causing hard black deposits that damage intake valves
and pushrods, ultimately destroying the engine.

"At a minimum the problem can devalue a boat significantly since replacing
damaged fuel tanks and engines can be a significant expense. However, the
potential for leaking and explosion is a far greater factor," said Chuck
Fort, associate editor of Seaworthy, the damage avoidance newsletter from
BoatU.S.

BoatU.S. is asking boaters for any firsthand reports or other information
they may have on the issue and is doing additional testing to evaluate the
extent of the problem. "We'd like to know if other gasoline reformulations
with lesser concentrations of ethanol react with the resin, perhaps at a
slower pace," said Fort.

The increasing use of ethanol has largely been the result of federal and
state efforts to replace MTBE, a potential carcinogen, with a safer
alternative. MTBE and ethanol oxygenate fuel to help reduce harmful
emissions when running cold engines just after startup. BoatU.S. has no
reports from other states using lesser concentrations of ethanol. "Many
well-regarded boat manufacturers have used fiberglass tanks reliably for
years," said Fort. "But unforeseen by these builders, the new reformulation
in New York and Connecticut includes a high percentage of ethanol. And
unfortunately, gasoline with ethanol is the only fuel available to boaters
in these areas," he added. Some stations in New Jersey may also be using
ethanol-enhanced fuel.

If you have any information on the issue, please contact Fort at
703-461-2878, ext. 3033 or email CFort@BoatUS.com.

Early symptoms may include engine backfiring and hard (sluggish) starting,
in which the motor turns over slowly as though the battery were weak.
Affected engines also may not reach their rated RPM. Fort said,
"Ironically, the substance seems to pass through fuel filters leaving no
tell-tale marks - some have appeared clean on our reports. The only way to
know for certain is to pull the carburetor and inspect the underside for a
black, gummy film which can indicate a serious problem."

Until it fully understands the extent of the issue, BoatU.S. is recommending
that any early 1980's or older vessel with fiberglass gas tanks be stored
empty over the winter.

BoatU.S. - Boat Owners Association of The United States - is the nation's
leading advocate for recreational boaters providing its 620,000 members with
a wide array of consumer services including a group-rate marine insurance
program that insures nearly a quarter million boats; the largest fleet of
more than 500 towing assistance vessels; discounts on fuel, slips, and
repairs at over 825 Cooperating Marinas; boat financing; and a subscription
to BoatU.S. Magazine, the most widely read boating publication in the U.S.

 

[MikeP]

And you read it all here first!

BOAT US should be paying Sam's Marine for the rights to essentially reprint discussions on this site...

 

[Genesis]

I'm not sold until I see a spectrographic analysis of these deposits that marks the resin chemical components.

If I see that - THEN I'm a believer.

 

[Passages]

I think it's great that BoatUS monitors this site and raises a flag with issues of safety and risk of damage.

As a dues paying member, I'd like to suggest THEY sponsor a series GC scans on this mystery sludge and report findings in their magazine.

They certainly are better funded and have a wider audience than us good ol' boys with Hatts.

Whadaya say BoatUS? You have a willing pool of fiberglass tank owners right here who would be happy to work with you.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Since ethanol is known for binding to water and causing all sorts of problems such as phase separation and the "cleaning" of old tanks, melting away all of the deposits from years of service, I am not a believer YET either. Many of the problems could be ethanol related, but they may not actually be breaking down the resin.

 

[Passages]

True,

Let's get some analytic scans done and determine once and for all just what we are dealing with.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

according to boat us they have put in motion a fact finding investigation that will include testing the fuel and parts of tanks.
in the mean time page 11 (or 13 from the index) was interesting. i know it is based on e85 but consider what the bottom of your tank is after phase separation:
http://www.agriculture.state.ia.us/pdfs/ethguide.pdf

still looking for answers....