ethanol related issue?

[34Hatt]

Re: ethanol related issue Gets Worst

Well was going to call Tom Slane but I think fiberglass is not the way to go.
Was just at Activator Race Boats and my friend told me he had problems with some of the gel coat in his tanks coming lose and that Skater Race Boats have had tanks totally breaking down. Some of these boats are only a few years old. He says there is a resin out now that they claim is O.K but even he said only TIME will tell!!!

Dan

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

pulled the carbs yesterday. intakes and carbs are clean, no black goo. this is after pumping tanks and running on techtron laced fuel for about 5 hours. i'll probably empty the fuel filters today and see what it looks like. i'll let you know.

 

[34Hatt]

Jim I am not suprised that it is clean It seems that most of you had the problem in the beginning of the season. I think it was from sitting all winter and you had a large amount of the resin in with the gas. Am I right with that being your first tank??? I know it was Bob's and Eric's!
Dan

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

yes, it was leftover from last year. went out in october last year and launched in mid july this year. even thought it was stabilized it sat for quite a while. emptied the fuel filters yesterday, fuel looks and smells like gas, not like when i pumped the tanks. did bob and or eric pump their tanks? in hindsight i should have taken a batch of the bad fuel and had it tested for contents. maybe it is still possible for them?

 

[34Hatt]

No they did not just added fuel Eric has been using his and has filled more then once. Bob added fuel got back to the dock and pulled it apart and has not put it back together yet, hopefully this week. He is not using his tanks he is setting up a tank in cockpit to get the boat back to Bayport then doing new tanks over the winter. I think your tanks are the same as his maybe you can do better on a price by buying 4 or even more if there is anyone else replacing tanks this winter. I told Bob to check out Atlantic Coastal welding in N.J. I had a tank on my last boat done by them good price, nice work and super turn around time.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

do you think dan would be interested in pumping a gallon or two and having it analyzed by a lab? preferably before he takes the boat out again and mixes it up. that way we could pull from the bottom and see what we have. i would be willing to split the cost.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

i'm back....
i took a gallon of gas from bob's hatteras with the same symtoms/problems to a lab. they evaporated the gas and low and behold what was left was this black crud. they ran an IR scan (any chemists feel free to jump in) on it to try and identify it.
good news: they found no traces of polyester or epoxy resins. (my 1973 hatteras used fire retardent polyester)
bad news: they can't tell me exactly what it is. the closest signature it comes to matching is #6 fuel or motor oil.
i am contemplating my next step. they referred me to a lab in chicago with more sophisticated equipment for petroelium products. they will do more tests for more money with no assurances they can identify it.
if i could just get that team from CSI i'm sure THEY could id it.

 

[Passages]

IR scan came up with something like #6, eh?

Petroleum engineers please correct me, but I believe you would always find low grade distillate (such as #6) when you volitilize gasoline.

In effect - they found nothing.

 

[Genesis]

Hmmmm.....

I'm wondering if what is being seen here is the ethanol dissolving built-up crud off the walls of tanks that have had varnish and such accumulate in them over the course of 20 years - which is now ending up in the fuel system "all at once" and raising he||??

That is a theory that fits with the known facts... but unfortunately that's all it is....

 

[Passages]

Hmmm...you may be on to something.

I've always thought alcohol was a good sorbant of water but a poor solvent for varnish. Other distillate fractions that came out of phase over the past 20 years may be a different story. If these are being resuspended by ethonal we could be seeing a fuel to fuel incompability and not a problem with fiberglass tanks.

Curious to see what the next round of analysis shows.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

following the theory that it is the gum buildup of 30 years in the tank coming back to haunt (because i am still in denial about the tank theory) would anyone have any idea what this crud/varnish/gum would consist of in technical terms?

 

[Passages]

See the attached Chevron link on concerns with oxygenated gasoline, particularly the last section on solvency.

http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/oxy-nona/concerns.shtml

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

i'm familiar with that white paper, i wish i could take some solace from it.

 

[No Doubt]

Hello All,

Can I join in? I've got the same problem. I have been talking with a representative of Starbrite, trying to figure this thing out since July. I thought I was all alone at the time, but l guess not. I sent out a fuel sample to be analyzed several weeks ago and the first findings were.......drum role.....nothing but petroleum. I told the Starbrite rep to look for resin and he sent the sample off to another lab. Still waiting for results, although the lab specialist said that it was reasonable to suspect that older resins might break down under exposure to ethanol. In the mean time I had the heads rebuilt, the intake manifolds glassbeaded and I personally wire wheeled the pistons to remove an 1/32" - 1/16" of heavy black varnish deposit. Carburator cleaner works very well to cut this stuff. I'm with Salty on this one. Before I cut up my tanks and install bladders, I'd like to know for sure that it's resin we're dealing with and not 30 years plus of varnish build up in the tanks.
Has anyone else cleaned up the upper half of their engines and restarted them yet? I have some concern about the piston rings sticking.

BA

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

no doubt: here is the end of my summer, this is after rebuilding 1 entire engine and doing the heads on the other. sorry it is a bit long, but it worked.
i started by pumping both tanks
removed the valve covers and carbs. hand cranked both engines while spraying loads of carb cleaner, rigged a hose to the cans to try in get into the valve chamber best i could. checked the valve action as i went. if a valve would stick i would keep trying to get some spray into the intake valve. as a last resort if it still stuck i tapped it with a hammer on top which freed it. (if it doesn't free it the head must come off) on the valves you see sticking keep pressure on the rockers to keep them on the rods. yes, i bent some rods during this process. i took a hammer, straighten them as best i could and put them back in. (i kept a set of good ones for after i got the engines running then replaced the ones i had to straighten)
when i finally got the valves to go thru 3 rotations without sticking i cranked the engines,(coil disconnected) again liberal use of carb cleaner, standing on some pushrods to keep pressure on them. after a few succesful rotations of this i put the carbs back on and connected the coil and ran them on straight carb cleaner for as long as they would run. then i ran each engine off a remote tank laced with a double dose of chevron techtron for about 3 gallons long.
since then i have been adding only 20 - 25 gallons when i need it and lacing each load with a double dose of techtron. i have been out 7 or 8 times without any issue.

i pulled the filters and carbs after about 4 or 5 1/2 hour trips following the above process, intakes/carbs and filters were all fine.
i started both engines yesterday after sitting since labor day, both ran fine. i'll be going out tomorrow, i'll let you know.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

no issues after 40 minute cruise out and 40 minute cruise back after a 6 hour stay. now i'm not saying this is the solution to the problem because i don't know what the problem is. this is just how i salvaged part of my summer.

 

[smoothmove]

Test it directly?

If anyone has or could get ahold of a sample of tank material from an early model tank, it might be enlightening to subject it to some testing. That way the material properties could be tested directly against ethanol or any of the other common additives. It MIGHT save someone a lot of trouble fixing a problem that does not exist. Or it could point to a potentially dangerous situation if the problem is real. Just a thought.

 

[67hat34c]

I think a micro camera and with a light would be a huge benefit for tank inspection. Wonder if someone has something like this.

 

[34Hatt]

They have them its called a Bora Scope used in many applications such as going into cylinders for Inspection.

I say no to the Varnish/Crud issue Bob with Magic Hatt was using the AJX for a season and just last year pulled his plate and cheked his tanks he says they where Spottless. No crud no varnish on the walls. This year after sitting the winter [which I think is the key it takes all winter to build up enough in the gas to cause a problem] he had problems.

 

[Passages]

This should be enough to finish the arguements over whether boats - or anything- should be stored with tanks full or empty. Sounds like possible problems of moisture from condensation in tanks pales in comparison to the rapid deteriation of new formulated gasoline. Stabilized or not, I'm storing all tanks as empty as possible from this point forward.