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DD 471 for 671s

  • Thread starter Thread starter Triskele
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Triskele

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Nov 16, 2012
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264
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  1. OWNER - I own a Hatteras Yacht
Hatteras Model
43' DOUBLE CABIN (1970 - 1984)
My 43 DCMY is powered with Johnson Tower twin DD671Tis. They are absolute pigs on fuel...1 mile per gallon. The thought occurred to me to sell them and replace with DD 471 naturals. Has anyone ever heard of someone doing this? Is it feasible for this model/class of motor yacht? Any thoughts on the kind of fuel economy I would gain? Do not see it being feasible unless the gains are in the 3-4 mile per gallon neighborhood. Not interested in speed...presuming I can maintain cruising speeds of 7-8 knots. Only fuel economy.

Additionally, any thoughts on removing the turbos and reverting back to naturals? Can I expect to see fuel gains?

What kind of fuel economy gains can be expected from installing an overhaul kit?
 
My 43 DCMY is powered with Johnson Tower twin DD671Tis. They are absolute pigs on fuel...1 mile per gallon. The thought occurred to me to sell them and replace with DD 471 naturals. Has anyone ever heard of someone doing this? Is it feasible for this model/class of motor yacht? Any thoughts on the kind of fuel economy I would gain? Do not see it being feasible unless the gains are in the 3-4 mile per gallon neighborhood. Not interested in speed...presuming I can maintain cruising speeds of 7-8 knots. Only fuel economy.

Additionally, any thoughts on removing the turbos and reverting back to naturals? Can I expect to see fuel gains?

What kind of fuel economy gains can be expected from installing an overhaul kit?

I don't believe you can remove turbos and get satisfactory performance there are many other inter related performance issues.
here is a snapshot of 6-71n's 310 hp ea...
1200 rpm....7 kts..1.5 gph ea
1400 rpm....8kts...2.5 hph ea
1800rpm......9kts..10gph ea
2200rpm......12.8 k..12.8 gph

lots depends of course on loading and bottom conditions..can't help on 4 cyl ones.
 
Going from a set of 400+ HP JT 6-71s to a set of 150 HP 4-71s would require new transmissions and props at the very least. You would most likely get a 8 kt cruise at 2.5 - 3 MPG - maybe. Hardly worth the expense even if you could locate a set of rebuilt 4-71s with gears for a reasonable price.

You can't change TIs to naturals without overhauling the engines. Pistons and cams are different to start with. The intake & exhaust system would have to be completely redone. You could remove the TIs and replace with naturals using the same gear and rework the props. Still, not worth the expense.

The correct way to do it would be to repower with some small John Deeres or Cats. Again, you are talking big $$$$ to save a bit of fuel.

Rebuilding the existing engines will net you little to no fuel savings. It will save on lube oil if the engines are well worn and they will start much easier in cold weather. I don't know what it costs per cylinder today but 3 years ago, a complete rebuild of a 16-92 was 46K less blowers and aftercoolers.
 
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Do you get only a mile per gallon even at displacement speeds? seems like the thing to do would be to run at displacement speeds most of the time and every hour or two run up a bit to keep the engines cleared out. In pleasure boat use, I can't imagine that any repower numbers could be made to make sense. You would have to use the boat for thousands of hours to get your money back.
 
Thanks all for your thoughts.
 
Do you get only a mile per gallon even at displacement speeds? seems like the thing to do would be to run at displacement speeds most of the time and every hour or two run up a bit to keep the engines cleared out. In pleasure boat use, I can't imagine that any repower numbers could be made to make sense. You would have to use the boat for thousands of hours to get your money back.

Jim...

Are you referring to hull displacement speeds? If so, can you explain what you mean? BTW, when I run her up to clear the engines, I find that if I ease the throttle back too quickly, the oil pressure drops a lot (maybe to around 5 psi). Is this a problem or reason for concern? Seems reasonable that the oil pressure should drop off when the engine speeds slows, but don't know what to expect. Have no experience with other Detroits or diesels.
 
Are you getting 1 NMPG at 7-8kts? If that's what you're saying then something doesn't seem right. I doubt you will see better economy running 671Ns or 471Ns at a given speed. It will take the same amount of HP and fuel to push the hull you just won't have the ability to go faster. The only way to increase NMPG will be with more efficient modern engines. Hardly worth considering unless your engines are shot and you plan on keeping the boat forever. If you need much better NMPG then you should consider buying a different boat. A close friend of mine had a 44ft trawler with a single Cummins 6BTA. I think he would get 4-5 NMPG running 7kts. He also cruised the boat full time 9 months a year
 
Good point, saltshaker. If fuel economy was that high of a priority, a 43 DCMY probably wasn't a very good choice.

And 1nmpg isn't bad at all for a big boat. When I went from a diesel boat to gas, that was a shock. My Commander 42 with 427s gets about .5mpg at cruise! Fortunately, this is a "transition boat."
 
Detroits commonly have low oil pressure in that range when fully warmed up. Others can comment, but I don't think 5 psi at idle is unusual in fully warmed up DDs of that vintage.
 
I got 1 mpg with my 6-71 TIB's at 1200 rpms with the gen set running on my 1989 Californian 45 MY. Up on plane I got .4 mpg.
 
Boats have what's called a "hull speed", calculated as a function of the waterline length.

"Hull speed or displacement speed is the speed at which the wavelength of the boat's bow wave (in displacement mode) is equal to the boat length. As boat speed increases from rest, the wavelength of the bow wave increases, and usually its crest to trough dimension (height) increases as well. When hull speed is reached, a boat in pure displacement mode will appear trapped in a trough behind its very large bow wave."

There is a pretty good article on Wikipedia from which I stole the above. With trawler-type boats, which do not get up on top of the water (plane) as you push them faster, the hull speed is the speed of best efficiency and usually the one that the boat will cruise at most economically. Very long hulls, because of their considerable waterline length, can achieve very high speeds in displacement mode- ie without having the hull lifted out of the water to plane on top of it. The design speed of the "United States" was in excess of forty knots, but that ship had nine hundred feet of waterline length.

To make small boats like ours go fast, it's necessary to lift the boat out of the water, so the hull is designed to create lift and elevate the boat partly out of the water as speed increases. To lift something that heavy out of the water using hydrodynamic lift takes a lot of horsepower, so the requirement for fuel goes up dramatically. But you get to go a lot faster.

I can't remember if your boat has turbos on the engines or not, but at idle speeds or speeds in the low rpm range, you aren't getting much boost from them, and the engines may be functioning more or less as nonturbos- not relying on boost to make horsepower. We have a number of members who choose to run at low speeds (ie below planing speeds) and just take longer to get where they are going. I don't think it hurts the engines at all as long as you speed up every so often and clear them out.

With the drop in values of older boats, a repower doesn't make any sense with your boat. Plus, it would make the boat much harder to sell when you decide to part with it and get something else, if you ever decided that. And fuel has gotten cheaper and may stay that way for a little while at least. I think you should stick with what you have, and if you decide you want to do a lot of long-distance cruising economically, start looking for a trawler. Like a Hatteras LRC. :)
 
Detroits commonly have low oil pressure in that range when fully warmed up. Others can comment, but I don't think 5 psi at idle is unusual in fully warmed up DDs of that vintage.

Yes 5 psi when fully warmed up at idle is normal on my 1979 671TIs.
 
We now have almost 1500 NM with our 43 DC and I suspect something is not right (meaning correct) with your boat and or running gear.

We have J & T 6-71 TIs and @8.5kts we get 1.75 NM per gallon @ 1050RPM

At 9Kts it goes down to 1.5 NM per gallon and RPM is 1200

At 17Kts and 1800RPM it's .5 NM per gallon

Our boat is as it was delivered 24X23 props and all these speeds are with close to full fuel and water, clean bottom and running gear.

A dirty bottom will change things dramatically

I suggest you start from scratch and check everything. Good Luck

If you decide to repower Call me first!:cool:
 

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