Dangerous 2-4' Seas

[spartonboat1]

I hope I am not tempting the devil with this post, but there have been two recent Great Lakes boating accident stories, both Lk Mich in the same general area, that featured 2-4 seas; at least that is what was 'reported'. One such accident resulted in the deaths of two sailors. Are these Hatt's just that seaworthy that few of us consider running in a 2-4' sea not all that consequential?

The two stories are:
The Chicago to Mack Isle sailboat race ran into 52kt winds up in the stretch between the Fox Isles and Beaver Isle, south of Grey's Reef Passage. There are videos converted to stills posted on Youtube of one of the boats, a J109 which is a 35' boat. She is knocked down with the mast level with the water and lightning all around and high winds. Although they are stills there is audio. Another sailboat about 40' flipped over and two drowned of the 8 on board. All had PFD's and the two who drowned were tethered. However, it was a 'modern' design with no weight in the keel. She was to be kept on the level by the sailors sitting out on 'wings'. My guess that she had no righting moment and when she went full turtle the two drowned were on the wrong rail and were pulled under. Why they did not release their tethers is not stated.

However, the interesting aspect is that they were in 4-6 foot seas. Mighty low for a 52kt wind I'd say.

The other story is also recent. A 40-50', 30-40 party capacity tour boat was out on Lk. Mich in '2-4 ft seas' (winds are not mentioned), when when she took a wave over the bow, (stuffed the bow I guess), broke one or more forward windows, and knocked out her controls; I notice some Hatt owners 'fill in' their fwd windows. She was steered to the beach I believe, and of the 40 on board, all but 2 waded to shore; she is seen beached in a video. The USCG rescued two from a copter. Again, how does a boat that size stuff the bow in 2-4' seas? P.s., she is stored on the hard, where I am for the winter, and I will now take a closer look. Not much freeboard I am guessing.

Well, in closing, I would not give much thought to 2-4 seas, although absolutely would not go if 52kt winds were forecast; been there, done that.

So 2-4's...I don't know what to think.

 

[OBXTucker]

I for one wouldn't be out in that kind of blow! Not on purpose anyway. That said, I would expect Kismet to "handle" it in stride. Te freeboard is VERY high and I wouldn't be concerned about stuffing the bow. Of course, it all comes down to the skills of the skipper. Much smaller boats, handles perfectly, would have done fine too.

Bottom line, it all depends....

 

[SKYCHENEY]

The storms were forecast and they came up in the middle of the night. The racers that had trouble were probably not preparing for the storm, but instead trying to gain favor in the race by not dropping their sails. This was very unfortunate, but probably could have been avoided.

 

[saltshaker]

How do you stuff the bow of a 40-50ft boat in 2-4ft seas? Something doesn't add up here. 4-6 is pretty sedate for 52kt winds. I guess if they were tight and steep they would cause a problem but I'd be more concerned about the wind.

 

[GJH]

Doubtful they were indeed 2-4's, unless they were not putting wind wave heights on top of the swell. but certainly not all 2-4's are created equal regardless. We came over to Cape Lookout this morning from Beaufort Inlet in very rough 2-4's, knocked us around pretty good even with stabilizers. Nothing boat-threatening of course, but not pleasant and we took some water over the bow. We had made this trip a couple of weeks ago in 2-4 and it was gentle going, the difference between a 6 second period and 12....

Edit: well what do you know, I just read the revised forecast and those were 3-5's we in. Still in the range though!

 

[labrador]

Been on many rag boats where we broached under the kite mostly in 30 to 35kts where the main trimmer didn't get it out soon enough. Had the stick in the water about a 1/2 dozen times but always popped back up. When you're clipped in a lot of boats don't have D rings with cords attached that you can release at the harness itself. That's the 1st thing I check on the harnesses provided when going offshore on a racing boat. If you can't release the thether from the harness by a good pull on a stout cord attached to the D ring then you're going to be in trouble if you're caught below water strapped in. Can't believe in 2 to 4 footers in 50 plus? Seen it happen several times up to 45 min in duration even in the stream. George, we'll be out to the Cape on Fri. night with my niece, her husband and their 3 boys. Blue gets to spend the weekend chasing tail, his and other female dogs, at the kennel this weekend. See ya at the beach if you're staying that long. Say hey to Ann.
Skip and Giga

 

[Pascal]

You really can't compare racing / sailing accidents with running our big heavy high freeboard hatts

The two who drowned were hit by storms, winds were not sustained at 50kts at least not for long so waves didn't have time to build up to reflect the wind
But again these accidents were likely caused by having too much sails out for the conditions

That said there are 2 to 4s which will be short and steep and car more rough than your average 2-4... I got caught in the lower Delaware a couple of years ago with 2-4a that were steep and short and felt far worst. This is why forecasts always need to be taken with a grain of salt..

 

[Nonchalant1]

Been in 2 to 4 on Lake Michigan many times. It couldn't begin to threaten a big Hatt, but those sailboats are a different story and the waves were likely higher at that moment, but it was the wind speed that knocked them over because they had too much sail out. The 2 killed were not just drowned, the boat was heaving in the waves and came down on top of them while they were tethered.

The tour boat is a different story. Our 53MY's bow was 7 ft off the water, but many boats are MUCH lower. Have you ever seen a 60 ft. Bluewater? It's very low and mostly a long single story boat (not at all capable of real blue water) and you could stuff the bow in short duration 3 footers. We have had green water over the bow in 8 to 10 footers with 4.5 sec. duration. That just about makes the waves as long as the boat so on the way down the back of the wave, the next wave face is right there as the bow goes down into the trough.

 

[Canuck Dennis]

The old adage "speed kills" is the same for poor sea conditions, it is imperative that the vessel has time to use it's "flotation ability" to rise and fall in sequence with wave patterns when in poor sea conditions.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

As a racing sailor with a combined 42 Mackinac races under my belt, (and 9 first place finishes), I feel qualified to comment here. Yes, those storms were forecast. I don't think you would ever sail a Mackinac race if you won't go out when storms are forecast. Those are just some of the many challanges you face when racing sailboats. Another well known fact is that you never take all your sails down as you are then at the mercy of mother nature with no steerage. You can, of course, start the engine and use it for steerage but then you must withdraw from the race. 40 boats chose that option in that Chicago Mackinac storm. Thunderstorms can be windless and just pour or they can blow like hell. The life of a thunderstorm is 20 minutes max. When you see one coming you can't really tell how rough it will get. As far as seas go, most thunderstorms occur during low system wind conditions as they really have a tough time forming on windy days. For that reason the seas at the start of the storm are usually quite flat. I have endured some 50 to 60 knot winds in one of those little beauties with almost flat water. The 2 foot seas usually show up after the storm winds have gone by. The other fact is that boats 3 miles away can be sailing in smooth and lovely conditions while you are getting beaten up badly. If you decide to stay in the harbor at any time that any thunderstorm is possible, you won't do much boating in the Great Lakes and surely won't ever race a Mackinac.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Other thoughts about long distance sailboat racing.....The date and time of your class start are set way in advance. If there is enough wind to clear the boats off the line, the race will start. Three years ago we raced, (and won our class), in the 100th Chicago Mac. race. At the start it was drizzling and light. From about 5 minutes after the start and for the next 2 days there was no way to see another boat. We could barely see our own bow pulpit or spinnaker. Now this race had 365 boats racing on the same course. This is another of the potential dangers associated with sailboat racing. ...The 1985 Port Huron race started light, but as we rounded Cove Island, the wind piped to 37 knots. No storms folks, just a post coldfrontal, cold, blue sky howling wind that lasted over 24 hours. Yes, one boat sank and several were dis-masted. We finished and won, but I was one sore puppy for several days after. Since I have turned 70, I have decided that I am no longer up for that much torture. If you enter and start, you take what you get and deal with it. This stuff is no booze cruise.

 

[labrador]

Maynard, after having done 12 Newport to Bermuda races I agree you take what you get. The 1st 5 were without radar, weighed too much for the owner, and in pea soup like you had almost got run over by a freighter. 60' away all we saw was a big ass black object right off the bow. Had to do a chinese jibe to get out of the way. Needless to say, the weight of the rader was no longer an issue in future races. Give me 32 kts downwind all day and night with the chicken chute up and I'm happy as a clam. Anything more and we have to shorten sail.