Cruisair Replacement question

[nautibake]

We decided to update the entire lower level with new Dometic units and pro installer this week. We had one big condenser driving 4 air handlers but only one thermostat for all staterooms (guarantee that someone was uncomfortable at all times). We are replacing with 3 smaller condensers and all new air handlers. We’ll be able to control each of the main 3 SR’s independently, and the V-berth is slaved to the Fwd SR, so it is basically a “suite” of sorts. Here is some of the new gear on the truck, and a “before” and a “during” pic.

 

[Shayne]

My ac units are now about 30 years old. one in the crew quarters is leaking and the board is shot. my ac guy suggests changing. I just don't have time to do it myself. my ac guy wants 1600 in labor. 200 materials and 3600 for the new condenser, evap, control. All new wiring. can anyone say if the labor to replace everything seems excessive? i think the cost of the unit seems in the ball park.

 

[Boatsb]

Labor is what it is. I don't know how much time it will take but if you trust him do it. If you don't find a other guy.

 

[Pascal]

Labor seems a little high but it depends on access. The condenser should be easy to pull out in the ER. The air handlers maybe harder depending on how much cabinetry needs to come out. I d try to open it all up myself somthe unit is right there. I don't see 16 + hours of labor

 

[Boatsb]

Labor seems a little high but it depends on access. The condenser should be easy to pull out in the ER. The air handlers maybe harder depending on how much cabinetry needs to come out. I d try to open it all up myself somthe unit is right there. I don't see 16 + hours of labor

I'm sure you don't see it because you have no knowledge of the scope of the project. Have you seen it? Have you assessed the work?

Is the tech going to clean the lines and change to a new refrigerant? Replace the lines? What else is needed?

You comment on things that you have no real knowledge of and that's not helping anyone but your ego.

By the way somewhere, some how someone is going to pay a service provider fairly whether you like it or not.

I cant keep up with the amount of work I seem to be getting lately and I don't shoot low ball to get jobs numbers and try to make it up on changes. I have a simple rate schedule and I always estimate a bit higher ( an hour or two ) because something challenging always presents itself. I know an AC guy in the Daytona area that's very doing the same and we cross paths sometimes laugh about the people pushing for lower cost labor and then complaining about what they get.

Lets take a bit of time to look at costs vs your wishes.

Commercial Vehicle insurance $$$$$
Liability insurance $$$$$
Workers Comp insurance $$$$$
Fuel $$
Inventory of parts $$$
Ordering, receiving and inventory control $$
Labor ( if you have an employee doing the work ) $$$$$
Follow up and warranty $$
Collections $$$
Marina fees ( In Cape Canaveral they average $30 - 50 a day each yard)


What the uninformed customer sees.

A guy in a truck or van $$
brings the gear that magically got in there. FREE
Has everything he needs for the jog in there FREE
Sneaks in the yard to save you $50. FREE

 

[MadHatter53]

Damn Scott !! Your always such a DH when someone asks a question. Jumped right on the guys back as you always do.

 

[Boatsb]

If your cephalorectal disease is flaring get some ointment.

How can you determine if a quote is fair if you dont know the scope of it? Unless you and Karnak have a deal going.

Theres a constant bashing of service providers here based on the "experiance" of some do it wrong your selfers who always know better.

I install professional broadcast electronics for a living. I install marine electronics for a living and I do it professionally where quality and knowledge is concerned.

I don't expect the doctor I visit to give me a break because the exam is routine and I don't expect the butcher to give me a break either. All the cheapskate boaters ( not the ones like WaltP and BobK who admit it) try to bring down the cost of their boating at others expense. If you cant afford it find a cheaper hobby. If you dont like paying for labor dont hire it out.

The poster of the question asked if the prices looked reasonable and they did . I work in an area with many good service providers and we all hold our prices and make sure we do things right. You get what you pay for.


My original post stated if you trust they guy its probably right. I didn't second guess the estimate or whats in the job. Some other person did that.

 

[racclarkson@gmail.com]

Maybe it’s the personal insults that get in the way.

 

[Boatsb]

Its hard to reply to specific posts or people without being personal.

Sorry if I seem harsh but to discuss the scope of a project you've not seen and even state your not sure whats involved then state the price is high is just plain .....


Forget it Ill get banned for stating the truth in a way that may piss someone off.



Shayne,

Im in the Port Canaveral area. If you want, PM me and we can talk. I don't second guess or undercut professionals that did the up front work but I may be able to get you a second opinion if your in the area.

 

[Pascal]

Talk about ego... geez.

Without getting into the gutter...

Business costs like insurance, worksmen comp, fuel etc are already accounted for in the labor rate. Same with travel as most techs charge a travel fee. So your rant about these costs is irrelevant. Nobody is disputing the average $90 to $100 labor rate.

In 20 or 30 years I have had a number of air handlers and condensors replaced on my boats and boats I run. Shayne was quoted about 16 hours of labor to replace the system, at the typical $90 to $100 rate that's 16 hours. I have never seen a professional air con tech require more than 2 hours to pull a condensor or an evaporator. So 4 hours for both, clear and recharge, another hour for the new control, travel etc it's a 6 to 8 hour job.

Sorry to say but labor padding is a common thing in he marine business. I was recently quoted 8 hours to replace the high pressure pump on a watermaker. Guy did the job in 3... what should have I paid over twice the labor? It s not being cheap, it s paying for what you receive.

That said I agree about not being able to asses a job sight unseen... this is why I started my post saying "unless access is difficult"

 

[dottieshusband]

As far as labor goes, it took me 3 days to swap out an existing split system unit in a stateroom for a self contained unit. If the job is simply swapping old components for new, it's probably a quicker job. But if you can't DIY, I don't think you'll find anybody significantly less than your quote. Workmans Comp, Liability Insurance, Taxes, and other factors drive the labor rate up. Don't know the size of the unit your talking about, but $3,600 is pretty steep for all but a big unit. But, if you can't DIY, pay the man!

 

[Boatsb]

Talk about ego... geez.

Without getting into the gutter...

Business costs like insurance, worksmen comp, fuel etc are already accounted for in the labor rate. Same with travel as most techs charge a travel fee. So your rant about these costs is irrelevant. Nobody is disputing the average $90 to $100 labor rate.

In 20 or 30 years I have had a number of air handlers and condensors replaced on my boats and boats I run. Shayne was quoted about 16 hours of labor to replace the system, at the typical $90 to $100 rate that's 16 hours. I have never seen a professional air con tech require more than 2 hours to pull a condensor or an evaporator. So 4 hours for both, clear and recharge, another hour for the new control, travel etc it's a 6 to 8 hour job.

Sorry to say but labor padding is a common thing in he marine business. I was recently quoted 8 hours to replace the high pressure pump on a watermaker. Guy did the job in 3... what should have I paid over twice the labor? It s not being cheap, it s paying for what you receive.

That said I agree about not being able to asses a job sight unseen... this is why I started my post saying "unless access is difficult"

Quoted and charged are different.

If I quote 16 and do it in 12 I charge for 12.

If I quote 16 and do it in 20 because there's issues I charge 20.

I don't quote sight unseen unless Ive done the same job before and I still include caveats.

 

[Chasemmc]

I think something is missing from the conversation.

Doing professional service work myself, I think that the client's expectations must by considered.

When I perform a DYI project my expectations are tempered by my experience, the difficulty I experience, my ignorance of what a good job looks like, and my tolerance for rework as mistakes are remedied during the service life of the repair. In general I am much more forgiving of myself than a hired pro.

When I am hired as a professional, the client doesn't give a rip about all that stuff. They expect and deserve the project be completed in a timely and professional manner, utilizing the proper parts, tools, and expertise to effect a repair or replacement that will last the service life of the equipment or materials. In fact, we demand they warrant the work and don't break other stuff in the execution.

Two completely different levels of expectation and therefore when pitting DIY to Professional you are trying to make an apples to oranges comparison.

I think the more relevant question is do you belief the professional can meet the standards of a pro job. If you think he is gouging, get more bids to establish the market. If you think he is unqualified, you are foolish to consider his services.

 

[Reefgeorge]

There's really only one way to know the market in your area, on your job. Get references for trusted professionals and then get three quotes with details on what is and not included, then you can determine whats fair where you live and on your job. I think everybody knows the risks of taking low ball bids in either shoddy work or upcharges as the job goes forward but that why you get references first. Conversely, even with quality work there can be such a thing as paying too much, thats why you get three bids.

There is obviously some deep rooted feelings here about people paying fair prices for quality work or not appreciating what it takes to be trained and equipped to be a quality professional but in the end, the market sets the prices and decides when the work is good enough to use again. My family was in the trades for 50 years, including me so I understand well these forces. We never advertised, got all our work by word of mouth and had work lined up virtually straight through in all those decades. Boom years were easier and recession years were harder but we always had work and a good reputation. In the long run the market decides if it wants to keep paying prices at a certain level given the quality of the outcome. These market forces really get balanced during economic downturns when quality and fair get rewarded. There are always customers who don't appreciate or want to pay for quality and there are service providers that are well suited for them. Getting mad because certain people don't get what it takes to deliver quality doesn't put food on the table. Courteous, professional work that meets expectations at a fair price keeps you working for 40 years and being appreciated.

Its the insults that turn threads like this into something ugly and detract from why we are here. Opinions are supposed to be shared here that's what we do in the service of others and it's OK to disagree but personal references to someones rectum (and it's presumed condition) are not necessary to get even a passionate point across. It only detracts from people having any appreciation for your point of view. Also, this is in large part a DIY help forum so by definition many of these discussions do not give work to professionals, it's the point of much of this forum.

 

[RonNP]

There's really only one way to know the market in your area, on your job. Get references for trusted professionals and then get three quotes with details on what is and not included, then you can determine whats fair where you live and on your job. I think everybody knows the risks of taking low ball bids in either shoddy work or upcharges as the job goes forward but that why you get references first. Conversely, even with quality work there can be such a thing as paying too much, thats why you get three bids.

There is obviously some deep rooted feelings here about people paying fair prices for quality work or not appreciating what it takes to be trained and equipped to be a quality professional but in the end, the market sets the prices and decides when the work is good enough to use again. My family was in the trades for 50 years, including me so I understand well these forces. We never advertised, got all our work by word of mouth and had work lined up virtually straight through in all those decades. Boom years were easier and recession years were harder but we always had work and a good reputation. In the long run the market decides if it wants to keep paying prices at a certain level given the quality of the outcome. These market forces really get balanced during economic downturns when quality and fair get rewarded. There are always customers who don't appreciate or want to pay for quality and there are service providers that are well suited for them. Getting mad because certain people don't get what it takes to deliver quality doesn't put food on the table. Courteous, professional work that meets expectations at a fair price keeps you working for 40 years and being appreciated.

Its the insults that turn threads like this into something ugly and detract from why we are here. Opinions are supposed to be shared here that's what we do in the service of others and it's OK to disagree but personal references to someones rectum (and it's presumed condition) are not necessary to get even a passionate point across. It only detracts from people having any appreciation for your point of view. Also, this is in large part a DIY help forum so by definition many of these discussions do not give work to professionals, it's the point of much of this forum.

George

Very well said sir

 

[Shayne]

Well, first off I'm sorry to see tempers flair over my question and I do appreciate the insight form more experienced boaters. I'm new to the forum and to my 1989 Hatteras which i love but I have learned that one cant just pay someone to fix everything on a 30 year old boat without asking around to see if the quote is reasonable, especially with 7 ac units which are all original. I think this is the smallest one at 5000 btu. I expect to pay for qualified experts, the cost just seemed a bit high to me.

 

[Boatsb]

Add in the removal of the cabinet, the shelves, replacing power when necessary ( old hats its often necessary) clean and test the copper lines, hook up the system and pull a vacuum for a few hours, let the system sit to see if it holds vacuum, charge properly and run the heat and super heat numbers. Determine all cycles are functional and spend a half hour with the customer if its a new style control. All in how many hours?

 

[nautibake]

Add in the removal of the cabinet, the shelves, replacing power when necessary ( old hats its often necessary) clean and test the copper lines, hook up the system and pull a vacuum for a few hours, let the system sit to see if it holds vacuum, charge properly and run the heat and super heat numbers. Determine all cycles are functional and spend a half hour with the customer if its a new style control. All in how many hours?

All of this and more. The original post seemed low to me, but my perspective is limited to my experience. I am 3/4 of the way through what has turned out to be a much bigger AC job than I could have imagined. I am tryin to “help” where I can with cabinets, gophering, trash and debris removal, etc. the original quote to replace the below deck AC (3 new condensers, 4 new blowers) was $22K. After too many surprises to list, including needing to replace wiring, copper lines, old breaker boxes, changing plan on shelf fabrication, etc etc etc we will be approaching $30K. Ouch. About $20K hardware, parts, etc and the rest labor. But, I can see a beautiful outcome that should perform very well for years to come. Most importantly for me, our guests should be much more comfortable.

So, this is as far from DIY as you can get. I am 100% that it can be done much much cheaper, but I don’t have those skills, and I didn’t go with the lowest bidder. I am paying the hourly rate, and the time is the time. Here is the work still in progress...

 

[Boatsb]

Ask you guys too long they evacuate lines for. I bet if they do it right it's a few hours (to get below 5000 microns on the tester) and get all the liquid and vapor out.

 

[Reefgeorge]

Below 500 microns. The time to evacuate is relative to the amount of moisture in the system and the quality of vacuum pump. A quality professional should have a high volume two stage pump. On a new system with a sealed compressor and evaporator that gets hooked up to flare fittings, the time to 500 microns can be pretty fast, well under an hour. A blown compressor with a fully contaminated system keeping the same evaporator can take hours with triple nitrogen sweeps.

George