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Crazy Battery Chargers

OK. I don't want three separate charging systems for what I'm trying to do - that would put me with a total of five chargers! I want a charger intelligent enough to charge three (two initially, then three) banks and when I'm ready to add that third bank as the inverter bank I'll get an inverter. I want something that won't cook one fully charged bank while trying to charge the depleted house bank. I guess I'm back to the Smart or Sentry as condidates, yes???? Outback doesn't seem to have a product for what I want to do initially.
 
OK. I don't want three separate charging systems for what I'm trying to do - that would put me with a total of five chargers! I want a charger intelligent enough to charge three (two initially, then three) banks and when I'm ready to add that third bank as the inverter bank I'll get an inverter. I want something that won't cook one fully charged bank while trying to charge the depleted house bank. I guess I'm back to the Smart or Sentry as condidates, yes???? Outback doesn't seem to have a product for what I want to do initially.


Ang,
With the Outback you won't ever need another battery bank. You can use the house as the inverter bank. I've been doing that for a few years now. We anchor out for days at a time and have no issues. We run everything on the boat and just start the genset in the morning and evening for a few hours to charge the batts, make hot water, and run the 220v appliances.

You'll save more by not having to buy extra batteries, haul around the extra weight, etc.

So, under this configuration, you have the Outback inverter/charger for the the house bank and one other charger(the one you have now) on the start bank. If you have a 12v system for gen start or electronics, you'll also need a little 12v charger for that, but those are small, cheap, and easy to mount out of the way. You can also run the 12v charger off of the inverter if you ever get into trouble and can't get the gen started.

There are a few other Hatts in my marina that we've hooked up the exact same way and I hear no complaints.

We never run the genset while underway as the inverter runs all of the 120v loads and the batts stay charged from the engines. In two years, I've only put 100hrs on my generator and this includes 2 weeks of constant anchoring each summer plus many weekend excursions.

Don't over-complicate the setup. You can do what you want to do without a bunch of extra batteries and chargers.
 
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Is it possible to charge two banks with the Outback system? My Protech is "supposed" to handle both.

No, the Outback will only charge one bank, but it's fast. You can put the whole 20amp input to charging, so you get something close to 80amps of charging which is great for bringing the inverter bank back up.
 
We were hoping to have a larger bank for the inverter than what our house bank is. We're using golf cart batteries so that I can handle them myself which I understand gives us less amp hours than the beasts I cannot manage. If I don't add a third bank, then I need to add a pile of sandbags. We need the weight on that side to balance the boat and have been holding off doing anything about that while trying to figure out what to do about batteries, inverters, and chargers.

Sky, we run the genny a lot here in Miami and the inverter isn't going to drastically cut that as it did for you. From the time we leave the dock, we are usually running air conditioning which the inverter won't run. The inverter is going to be more of a winter-use item for us when we don't use AC hardly at all; not that we won't use the inverter during the summer, but most of the time, we need AC when we're away from the dock in the summer. We do turn it off, for example, if we are spending the whole day in the water - when it is just us using the boat, not a charter (it runs constantly, then). I'll still have to run the genny to cook, do laundry, and heat water every day. I'm looking at an inverter mostly to save fuel when using the boat during the winter. The important items I want to keep running with or without the genny is the refrigerator and the ice maker. So, thinking this through...since I'll need the genny for cooking each day, anyway, maybe my small house bank will be enough for an inverter anyway, and a pile of sandbags will be cheaper. :) I'm thinking all this through trying to understand it as it applies to our needs and the ideas are still all over the place and often contradictory. One thing I don't know how to do is figure out how much battery power we'll need each day to run what we want to run to even know whether our golfcart battery house bank will be sufficient or not. I don't know what each item on this boat draws or what will be on the inverter in order to do the math. So, I was sort of thinking that more is better. :)

My genny is already on its own 12v system. The prior owner did that when he had the new genny installed right before we bought her. So, that one is already marked off the list. Likewise, the flybridge is on its own separate 12v system too.
 
It sounds like you have far less demand than I do. Your GC batts should be fine for the limited use you would have on inverter.

If you need to correct your list, try moving spare props/shafts or anything else that is heavy to that side.

My opinion is: Don't waste your money on another battery bank. That's just more to maintain. I can go 24hrs on a charge and I'll bet you'd be happy with half that.
 
If you need to correct your list, try moving spare props/shafts or anything else that is heavy to that side.

We've already done that. I still need about 300# on the starboard side.
 
We've already done that. I still need about 300# on the starboard side.


Just make Ed and Pascal stand on that side. :)
 
That's only about 16 cases of beer or wine. :D

The problem with that is that it just keeps evaporating. :D

I also have a few of those RD units. You know the reverse distilleries. They take beer, wine, or spirits and turn it back into plain water. If you don't keep them running you'll have a mutiny.
 
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The problem with that is that it just keeps evaporating. :D

Yeah, but alot of it gets put back in the starboard holding tank thus, restoring the ballast until we pump out. Then, we have to begin the viscous cycle all over again.
 
Angela, get yourself a copy of Nigel Calder's "Boat Owner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual", right now. You will love it. It will explain everything you want to know about this subject (batteries, inverters, chargers, alternators etc. etc.) in plain English and in detail. If you had it, you would not be asking these questions here.

Personally, I am out on the idea of using GC batteries as a house bank; haven't you already had some explode on you? One of the secrets to Sky's success is that he uses the big bad Rolls 8HHGs for his battery bank. They will crank the engines and provide 275 amp hours (AH) at 32 volts. That's like 365 AH at 24 or 730 at 12 volts.

I went to a separate 24 volt bank for my inverter system because we planned to, and did, live on moorings full time in winter (Marathon) and summer (Westport, MA). I just didn't feel comfortable running one of the main banks down all the time, and I had new, much lower AH (about 190) Interstates on the boat already via the PO. I also liked Magnum's integrate-able inverter, automatic generator start and battery monitor system (the new ones are even way slicker than mine). Additionally I had plenty of room to install 4 L16 deep cycle batteries delivering 410 AH at 24 volts in the generator room. They have the same footprint as a GC but are taller.

My primary goal was to have a system that would power our giant household Sub Zero side-by-side reefer, along with two beverage coolers, overnight, along with the rest of the upper deck. We ended up running the genny about 6-8 hours a day anyway for cooking, dish and clothes washing so that worked out fine. Now that we have settled in North Carolina for a couple of years, the generator is used much more for heating and cooling.

The flaw in my system that I have not corrected yet is that the inverter bank does not get charged off an alternator, so it gets run down more while underway. Someday I may hang a 24volt alternator off one of the engines, which is doable though somewhat expensive. I only have selected circuits on the inverter and someday may add more. Given where the different AC panels are, that will be a bit of a PITA.

While I have been delighted with my system for the last 3 1/2 years, if I had to do it all over again, I would probably install a second, smaller and quiet modern "night generator" of about 10 KW (my boat is wired for one) and MAYBE hang an Outback or NewMar on the 32v house bank, which is now made up of the same Rolls batteries Sky has. Current long term plan is to get the 2nd generator which may well mean giving up my beloved Magnum system. I would run that way awhile before deciding if an inverter was needed.

Remember, inverter power is not all "free". You are going to buy the energy to recharge that bank from somewhere: your engines, the genset, or FPL. Eventually, the batteries have to be replaced. To me, the main benefit of the inverter is the quiet, and secondarily not putting out exhaust fumes and water all night.
 
IMO you don't really need separate batt banks. I have both oem banks combined and charged with the Outback inverter/charger. It works beautifully.

THe Calder book mentioned earlier describes that one large batt bank is more efficient than two smaller banks so overall you are better off with one bank instead of two as far as battery life and efficiency are concerned.

HOWEVER, I will readily admit that it is theoretically possible to run down this large batt bank far enough so that you cannot start the engines. I say it's theoretically possible because I have never been able to actually do that but it could happen if you sat at anchor for several days and never ran the mains or genny. But I can promise that for at least 24 hours of batt/inverter use, our 8v71TIs will start instantly. We have cheapo Dekka Batts; I'd imagine that with Rolls batts you'd be talking about at least 36+ hours with no trouble if they started out fully charged.
 
I have Calder's book - I've had it since I got the boat five years ago. I've begun reading it over and over, but I just don't get it. I end up reading on through it, but not quite understanding it, still, and the further into it I get, the more lost I am. That's my problem - I have some sort of mental block for all that electricity stuff.
 
As George noted, most of the new inverter/chargers have all kinds of special functions. The Outback will start your genset at a predetermined battery voltage if you have the Mate. It also will equalize and all of the charging voltages and times are programmable (Absorb, float, refloat, etc). Additionally, if you add the Flexnet, you will be able to keep track of total amp/hours in, out, and remaining.

I know there are other good units, but if you want one in 32v, I think Outback is one of the only choices.
 
Angela, if the Calder book is difficult for you, then hire someone like Ward's to do the install for you. You can't get this explained in plainer English and pictures than Calder uses. Coming to a forum for advice will likely at best end up confusing you and at worst lead to some bad mistakes.

Sky, the Outback's method of accomplishing generator starting is rather convoluted, whereas Magnum's networked module (I have a three wire system) is quite elegant and easy to use.

http://www.outbackpower.com/pdf/tech_notes/advanced_generator_start.pdf
 
Sky, the Outback's method of accomplishing generator starting is rather convoluted, whereas Magnum's networked module (I have a three wire system) is quite elegant and easy to use.

http://www.outbackpower.com/pdf/tech_notes/advanced_generator_start.pdf

I don't have mine hooked up to start the genset. I'd rather start it myself as I don't like that automatic stuff. I want to know that the generator is pumping cooling water, etc.

But, if I did want to do this, I think I could simply run the wire from the Mate to to the Norpro Aux start input and I'd be good to go. I don't have the standard Norpro panel. I have the optional digital control so it looks like that would support this without the need for any additional relay.
 
I had somewhat mixed feelings about the AGS for the reasons you do, Sky, but it has turned out to work well for us. I only have it on when we are on the boat, and it virtually always comes on when I am awake, or it awakens us. What typically happens is one of us will get up in the morning and start the microwave for tea and/or the coffee maker, and the voltage draw down will trigger the gen start. You definitely know when the genset starts. I like it because you don't have to keep minding the volt level of the batteries or worry about the inverter kicking off due to low voltage. Since we spend so much time living aboard away from shore power, this has been a very nice convenience. As a side benefit, it is also there to spring on if and when dock power fails. Also, my generator cuts off very quickly if temps get high as I learned when we had a bad heat exchanger. I use a daily checklist to confirm oil and coolant levels as well when we are moored or anchored for more than one day.

The Magnum system is highly and easily adjustable for start voltage and run time hours, the new ones are even more sophisticated in integrating with the Battery Monitor System. My old Onan requires glow plug activation for a set period of time, as well as the starter being engaged for a certain period of time and engaging the stop solenoid for X amount of time to ensure proper shutdown. You program the Magnum AGS to your genset's profile and it executes perfect starts and stops every time.
 
I'd add the NewMars to your 12 volt list. American made and great customer service. NewMar makes a very expensive and well made 32V inverter, I think the Outback may be a better value. Newmar shows a 32v charger in their catalog, But I think it is a made-to-order unit.

Sentry still makes 32v chargers as well. Steve Pooler (SPcoolin on here) is an expert and evangelist for those; I have had issues with mine which seem to have got better with a new control board. Nice thing about them is they are field serviceable and getting parts for my old unit was easy. Most (if not all) authorized Cruiseair techs are also trained in Sentry. I decided to go with a separate 24v bank for my inverter set up and highly recommend Magnum for 12 or 24v inverters.

Wow George LOL...I've been called a lot of things in my life but "Evangelist" ???
Guess that's one I'll have to add to the list...Though I never much cared for the Bakers...

Angela...Yes the Sentry will reliably do what you want...It's just not as fast at recharging deeply discharged (inverter depleted) batteries as the newer multi stage chargers are...But it's also field repairable (as mentioned by George) as opposed to sending it out for complete board change outs like happens with most newer multi stage chargers...The only thing in those to replace is the board, which is the main cost of the charger...When they quit...They usually quit altogether...
The Sentry will almost always work, or even have a work around inside till you can get service....That's part of why they get some bad hype...Most have had someone into them doing a work around that never got fixed properly, but it still works (for many years) so folks leave it be not knowing the difference...

Sentry "Evangelist"
Steve~
 
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Newmar lists 32v chargers in several sizes but in reality they only make the little one(10amp, I think). If you call them they will tell you that there wasn't enough demand.
 
OOps, I was referring to NewMar's "smart" charger. They still make a ferro AFAIK.
 

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