Cost of Painting Hull

[Brian Degulis]

" Awlgrip is much harder and considered a no maintenance coating it will resist fender scuffs and other abrasions much better than Awlcraft or Imron."

Brian, what do you base that statement on? Their are Imron paint jobs on boats on this site that are 15+ years old and, according to the owners and the pics, still look nearly new. What actual evidence do you have that Awlgrip is superior?

12 year old Imron NEVER waxed:

Mike I never said superior that's a matter of opinon what I said was That Awlgrip is Harder. If you do a little research you will see that is a fact. Awlgrip is considered a no maintenance coating because it maintanes it's shine from a very hard resin layer that floats to the surface as it dries. Awlcraft or imron do not the shine is basically in the paint they are both softer than Awlgrip. The advantage to them is that because they are softer they can be polished very nicely and come up looking new. The dis advantage is they are not as abrasion resistant and will require polishing through they're life and they don't hold up to abrasion as well. This is why Awlgrip is always the choice for deck coatings great abrasion resistance.

If you put both products side by side and did no polishing at all the Awlgrip would easily outlast the Imron
The problem is that when Awlgrip Fades out you can't get near as good a result in polishing and bringing it back as you can with Imron. It can be polished and made to look better but not like softer coatings. 99% of the time when an Awlgrip job fades in 5 or 6 years it's because not enough paint was aplied it's critical to get the correct mil thickness in ordere to have a good resin barrier on the surface. There is a boat in my area that I did in Awlgrip around 12 years ago it has never been polished or sealed just cleaned. The shine is still very good on everthing except the front of the flybridge. The way the boat sits that area gets non stop sun it still has some shine but has definetly faded.

Brian

 

[MikeP]

Here's my problem with this...

You are stating that Awlgrip will "easily" outlast Imron but you are not providing any support for that. If you have some personal examples or appropriate internet references, then you should post them. I have posted my personal experience with Imron plus there are statements by others on this site that Imron has lasted 15+ years. So it seems to me that statements that Awlgrip lasts longer should at least have some equal or better anecdotal evidence to go along with it.

I'M not saying that Awlgrip might not be as good or (possibly) better but all I'm seeing to support that are statements that it's better with nothing to corroborate them. I did do some web research and found several people talking about how good their Awlgrip looked 6 years later but that's not anywhere close the the 12-15 year league that has been reported here by Imron users. You may have some personal experience that has convinced you Awlgrip is superior; if so, you should explain it. I'm certainly not adverse to switching to ANY product that offers better performance than one I am using.

 

[TedZ]

FWIW

Both Imron and Awlgrip can be touched up and repaired by an experienced professional. There are, however, significant differences between these two linear polyurethane (LPU) paints. These particular brand names also happen to be the best-known examples of the two main classes of LPU coatings: the acrylic polyurethanes (Imron, Awlcraft 2000, Interspray 800, PPG Concept, Sikkens Yachtcryl) and the polyester polyurethanes (Awlgrip, Interspray 900, Sterling, etc.) Both acrylic and polyester LPU coatings produce a beautiful wet-look shine. The chief difference is the polyester LPU yields a harder, more weather- and UV-resistant finish so your boat stays glossy longer with Awlgrip than with Imron. Many smaller shops recommend the acrylic LPU because it’s a lot easier to work with, especially if they don't have a dedicated paint booth. An acrylic LPU dries faster and, because it’s a softer paint, it’s easier to perform the after-the-fact buffing required to force a temporary gloss onto a mediocre spray job full of dust and dull areas. Awlgrip, on the other hand is quite unforgiving and it’s a lot harder to get good results in marginal painting conditions. In our yard, we use Awlgrip for major work in our paint booth where conditions are ideal and use acrylic urethanes for smaller jobs (boot stripes, transoms) in our main shop and at our service docks where bugs and dust are a factor. Both types can be repaired by spraying a patch or brush touch-up and then wet sanding and buffing to blend it with the surrounding finish. Special blending additives help. One of the biggest problems in repair work is color matching and our experience is that an Awlgrip hull color stays stable and fade-free longer than an acrylic. This means it’s more easily matched years later with a stock color fresh out of the can. Because of the extra hardness of the coating the Awlgrip, repair is a bit more difficult to buff and blend but not dramatically so for an experienced technician.

Ted

 

[MikeP]

Ted are you also "Nick Bailey?"

I ask this because your response is word-for-word from:

http://www.diy-boat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1013&Itemid=136

If that's also you or your shop, fine but that's not at all clear in your post.

 

[krush]

if those ain't his words...gotta love plagiarizers! LOL

 

[Brian Degulis]

Here's my problem with this...

You are stating that Awlgrip will "easily" outlast Imron but you are not providing any support for that. If you have some personal examples or appropriate internet references, then you should post them. I have posted my personal experience with Imron plus there are statements by others on this site that Imron has lasted 15+ years. So it seems to me that statements that Awlgrip lasts longer should at least have some equal or better anecdotal evidence to go along with it.

I'M not saying that Awlgrip might not be as good or (possibly) better but all I'm seeing to support that are statements that it's better with nothing to corroborate them. I did do some web research and found several people talking about how good their Awlgrip looked 6 years later but that's not anywhere close the the 12-15 year league that has been reported here by Imron users. You may have some personal experience that has convinced you Awlgrip is superior; if so, you should explain it. I'm certainly not adverse to switching to ANY product that offers better performance than one I am using.

Mike one more time I'm not saying that Awlgrip is Better as I said before that's a matter of opinion. What I said was that without any polishing Awlgrip will look better longer. Now that's not my opinion that the nature of the product and the way it works. Awlgrip is formulated to be a no maintenance coating Imron is not but Imron can be polished and brought back with like new results Awlgrip can't. Both coatings due what they are suposed to do but they work diffrently. Saying one is better than the other is like asking what's the best varnish ask ten people and you will get ten diffrent answers and they are all right or wrong depending on how you look at it. The skill of the painter the atmospheric conditions how the boat is used how much sun etc. Will all affect the life span leading some to believe one is better than the other that's just opinion and it's subjective. But there are diffrences that aren't opinion they're fact.

Brian

 

[MikeP]

Thanks for the additional response, Brian. I understand your point.

Re Varnish - Heck, EVERYBODY KNOWS that Epifanes is the ONLY varnish!!!

 

[Walter P]

Gentlemen,

Regarding the life span of either Imron or Awlgrip, I have had both over the years and as stated by you folks both have their benefits and shortcomings. My first Awlgrip job was done in the late 80's in Alabama by a well know yard and the job looked great.... for a while. Within a few years it started to dull and in some areas over aluminum it actually peeled. A few years later with another Hatteras - this time painted on the Chesapeake (on Kent Island), the contractor applied many additional coats and the result was magnificent. The boat was sold about 9 years ago to a friend so therefore I get to see it often. The shine is still blinding and flawless. All that is done is he applies a coat of Awlcare polymar annually. I lost touch with the painter but would love to find him again. His name by the way was (is) Mike Stein, so if anyone knows of his whereabouts, let me know...

Walt

 

[TedZ]

When i copied and pasted the excerpt i intended to include the Author, apparently Nick Bailey. My apologies for the confusion. That is also the "for what it is worth", comment as i don't know the author either. Agreed with him though.

Ted

 

[TedZ]

BTW MikeP if you knew the Bailey's post was there why didn't you point to it as the "support" you were looking for contradicting your position?

I don't think there is a painter alive who has ever tried to "fix" an Awlgrip ding that doesn't know that the polyester polyurethanes are harder than the acrylic (non-linear) two component paints. As we have said here many, many times, "If you are mixing hardener 1:3 you are using a softer paint than the 1:1 mixes." They are both wonderful paints for our use. I personaly prefer the 1:3 paints because i touch up or repaint some every year and the blending is hard enough with the Imron types. I find it impossible - my tools and skill level - to make Awlgrip repairs that look good for 4 - 6 years.

As we quote forum entries regularly, i liked what Nick Bailey - whoever he is - said but i did mean to copy his name.

Ted

 

[Maynard Rupp]

I have now seen 2 examples of fenders rubbing through the finish with Awlcraft.
I probably have some perfect examples of the durability of Imron and Awlgrip. My 35' racing sailboat was painted with Awlgrip in 1986 by a very reputable group in Sarnia Ontario called Captain's Yacht Services. It still looks OK, but wheeling it with Finessit II doesn't bring the shine back very well. Our '86 Hat has the original Imron and still looks like new. I wheel it once a year. I am now using a 3M polish called "foam pad polishing glaze-light" #05995. This stuff works just like Finesseit II but stays wet longer and is a bit easier to towel off. Either product works great and keeps our Imron like new. I have touched up our boat with Imron using only the paint # to buy the paint. The match has been perfect with both the white and blue.

 

[MikeP]

"BTW MikeP if you knew the Bailey's post was there why didn't you point to it as the "support" you were looking for contradicting your position?"

A valid question!

I never heard of/saw the Baileys post until you posted your response, which I thought was very good. Then I decided to do some searches of my own on Awlgrip vs Imron to see other views and Bailey's article showed up.

Re those searches, one yacht site poster mentioned that clear evidence that Awlgrip was "better" is because Boeing uses it on their aircraft. But they don't. They use Imron. All it requires to determine that is to do a search and find this quote from Boeing's approved vendor list for aircraft and helicopters which can be found at:
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/tcmdhs/splrdj.pdf (choppers)
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/tcmdhs/hms.pdf (aircraft)

Frankly, I don't care what Boeing uses, MY problem with all this is that EVEN when a search is made, it doesn't mean the info found is even valid. The guy who stated that Boeing uses Awlgrip is wrong so how can I assume ANYTHING he says is correct? Perhaps Boeing USED to use Awlgrip. But if so, the poster should have said that or, said, something like "as far as I know..." or "as I recall..." It requires a LOT of searching to even begin to separate the wheat from the chaff. And, in the end, you still have to decide whether the info applies in your situation.

Oh well, I seem to have digressed here but bad information seems to be rampant...NOTE: I am not saying that about "your" post re Imron/awlgrip, I am not disputing the issue re the paints themselves.

You might want to check out my Brian Surgery Site!

just kidding

 

[dmichaudri]

I have restored / upgraded 5 different boats over the past 12 years. I have been given quotes for a 53 MY for awlgrip or Imoron (my choice) for $150 to $200 for the entire hull (topsides below the rail) by a couple of very good smaller yards in Maine. I have used these yards before and they are indeed a pleasure to work with and very thoughtful people.

The key is the weight of the yacht and the height. One yard has a 30 ton travellift and the other uses a tractor pulled trailer (on an old marine railway bed) that can go a bit higher. Thus, I think the 53 is about the comfortable limit for either yard.

Regarding the height, with a radar arch bridge a 53 MY would not fit inside their barns. The apporach is to erect a temporary building and do the work that way.

If one want to obtain the best value, the approach would be to arrainge for the yard to so the work after the first week of July, back in the water mid-August. They all have a slow 6-8 week period in the summer and hence will sharpen their pencils a bit. The key is value, not just price, and to look at some of the yards' completed work and talk to owners.

In my estimation the Maine yards are some of the best ways to go (just stay away from Hinckley unlesss you drive a Bentley) for high quality value price workmanship. Once the yacht is relaunched you can cruise in reasonable comfort until mid September before heading south or laying the yacht up.

See you on the water.

 

[TedZ]

I understand MikeP.

Nice answer BTW.

Thanks.
Ted

 

[Brian Degulis]

Gentlemen,

Regarding the life span of either Imron or Awlgrip, I have had both over the years and as stated by you folks both have their benefits and shortcomings. My first Awlgrip job was done in the late 80's in Alabama by a well know yard and the job looked great.... for a while. Within a few years it started to dull and in some areas over aluminum it actually peeled. A few years later with another Hatteras - this time painted on the Chesapeake (on Kent Island), the contractor applied many additional coats and the result was magnificent. The boat was sold about 9 years ago to a friend so therefore I get to see it often. The shine is still blinding and flawless. All that is done is he applies a coat of Awlcare polymar annually. I lost touch with the painter but would love to find him again. His name by the way was (is) Mike Stein, so if anyone knows of his whereabouts, let me know...

Walt

That's the key with awlgrip to build up enough mill thickness in one spraying operation. The resin layer floats to the top as it flows out if you let that first coat dry to the point where it is very tacky then apply more the second coat blends into the first bringing (theoreticaly) twice the resin layer up to the surface. You can do as many coats as you like I generaly do a total of 4 or 5 the last coat is thinned with a slower reducer like 50% brushing reducer mixed with the spraying reducer. I try to hit that point where it flows out completly but doesn't sag. When done this way it will have a initial shine not obtainable with imron it almost looks like you could jump into it and the (no maintenance) lifespan will be very good.

If I were rolling and tipping I would not use Awlgrip. Because you must wait for each coat to dry you will only get the resin layer from the last coat you put on. It works and it looks good but it won't have near the life of a good spray job.

Brian