Chartering Rules

[Pascal]

This thread came up in conversation at our marina. A question came up whether the same rules apply to a foreign built vessel. Say if someone owned a Nordhavn or such. I am not aware of any distinction but I thought I'd put the question out there.

US flagged Foreign built boats can be chartered but can not be inspected vessels carrying more than 6 or 12 pax depending on tonnage

Foreign flagged boats can only do bareboat

 

[Passages]

Rules are basically the same except that Foreign vessels cannot get certified as "Inspected Vessel". The can be "Inspected - Uninspected Vessel" They can be used for charter and bareboat. Not sure if that was your question.

OK, got it. I thought the other guy was confusing Charter with Jones Act vessels.

 

[Freeebird]

We are currently writing a book for publication were boat owners can get all the information they need in one place, to operate legally. Once it’s complete and signed off by each department, I’ll share a link so you can get a copy.

I hope we dummies on this site get some credit in your new book.

I couldn't help but notice you seem to have made some changes on your site, so I'm assuming you have in fact learned something here. Seems to me you're still flirting with disaster in some areas, especially with you running the boat you live on with more than six paying passengers.

Just out of curiosity (yes, I'm a curious kinda guy), given your published rates include the services of a licensed Captain, what would your rates be should a guest hire their own Captain or if they are in fact a licensed Captain?

Is it okay to bring your own strippers, or would that charge still apply?

 

[Angela]

Just out of curiosity (yes, I'm a curious kinda guy), given your published rates include the services of a licensed Captain, what would your rates be should a guest hire their own Captain or if they are in fact a licensed Captain?

Hey Bird, you wanna bareboat charter this Yachtfish when you’re in town next week? I can bring the Mermaids.

 

[Freeebird]

Hey Bird, you wanna bareboat charter this Yachtfish when you’re in town next week? I can bring the Mermaids.

Will they be considered as strippers?

 

[oscarvan]

So solliciting some insight on the requirement of being enrolled in a drug testing program. I am familiar with the consortiums one can join. Can anyone tell me how the "random collection" is handled? I understand there are sites nationwide. How long do you have to report and, what if you're overseas be it business or vacation?

 

[MASTERPLAN MIAMI]

What’s great for me is that the Coast Guard had that chartering workshop. What’s good for you is that you can watch the whole thing recorded live on Facebook. Search for Coast Guard Sector Miami. You might not have so many questions after that. Just to touch on some notes from the class. The Coast Guard knows that the rules are convoluted and out dated. The Coast Guard also know me that an owner is most likely not going to let just anyone take and drive their large boat. They said that as long as you are allowing the customer to choose the Captain, you’ve met your obligation. Most tourists do not know a local Captain. Nor do they care to have to find one that meets the owners requirements and then have to obtain insurance for the charter with that Captain. So as long as you inform the charterer that they can hire their own captain and provide them with a list of owner approved captains, they can hire one of the owner recommended captains. As long as the owner does not require them to. The Coast Guard said, plain as day, you can see it in the video, if the chartered does not choose the owners recommended captain, the owner is under no obligation to rent the boat. Simple as that. It’s not a secret. It’s not illegal. They said that’s the way to be legal. As long as the chartered has the option to not hire the owners captain. Before a chartered signs a contract or books a charter, I make them aware of the regulations regarding a bareboat charter. I let them know that they can hire who ever they want. They never know a captain. I send them a list to choose from and let them know that I know the boat best. They choose me in writing. Then we proceed. As to the ownership question. Many Captains live aboard the boat they master. On that same note. If you guys really gave a crap about me, you’d stop trying to throw me under the bus. ( that means get me in trouble) You’re acting like your concerned but your not. My charters are all legal. That’s all you need to know. Actually, you really don’t need to know that either. You should just worry about yourself. As far as folks really wanting to know what’s required, my book will relate to US, Florida State and Local laws and will be time sensitive as laws change constantly. If you’d like a copy, it might be a while still but I’ll get you one. This chartering conversation is over for me. I didn’t start it. I just post videos of our experiences on the Hatteras. Seeing that too many complaints have come in, (No idea why someone would complain about a video) I won’t post any more videos. I hope that I’ve provided value to this thread. If anyone would like to ask me questions, feel free to message me directly. Thanks.

 

[MASTERPLAN MIAMI]

So solliciting some insight on the requirement of being enrolled in a drug testing program. I am familiar with the consortiums one can join. Can anyone tell me how the "random collection" is handled? I understand there are sites nationwide. How long do you have to report and, what if you're overseas be it business or vacation?

I’m not sure about all of them but the Charter Consortium says that I would have some time to provide a sample. If I’m out of town, they can arrange a collection from most places. They’re pretty easy on Captains as most captains travel often. They can usually arrange a location from where ever you’re at.

 

[Freeebird]

If you guys really gave a crap about me, you’d stop trying to throw me under the bus. ( that means get me in trouble) You’re acting like your concerned but your not. My charters are all legal. That’s all you need to know.

If anyone on here were interested in throwing you under the bus, they would ignore you and contact the USCG in your area. Insulting those who have been in this game for more than your one year is hardly the way to fit in, if that's your intent.

Best of luck to you. Maybe we'll see you at FLIBS. Maybe you can even teach us how to drink.

 

[Angela]

One thing to consider when doing a bareboat charter is the nature of the insurance policy. I will assume for sake of argument that anyone doing either crewed or bareboat charters has a “charterboat policy”. I had the standard charterboat policy, and like auto policies, I imagine they are all pretty much the same. For crewed charters, all policy limits were in place. However, as soon as you add that 7th passenger, break the charter contract into two contracts to make it a bareboat, the policy limits got slashed in half or some other drastic reduction. I can’t recall the reduction exactly and I don’t have the document anymore. So, just remember that....the exposure goes way up with a bareboat charter - it’s a risk you take, just make sure it’s a known risk and not a surprise. When I was buying charterboat insurance, I didn’t have the option to change that anywhere which is why I suspect the policies are all just about the same. Operators need to read their policies very carefully to be sure.

 

[rsmith]

US flagged Foreign built boats can be chartered but can not be inspected vessels carrying more than 6 or 12 pax depending on tonnage

Foreign flagged boats can only do bareboat

Something change? Because I got into some trouble years ago for running 6 pack charters with a 44 Striker

 

[Pascal]

Something change? Because I got into some trouble years ago for running 6 pack charters with a 44 Striker

Not afaik. As long as the foreign build boat is US flagged, you can run it as an uninspected charter with no more than 6 pax. I ran a Taiwan built Johnson 70 for 9’years, boarded on charter a few times. Dozens of Muts, Ferrettis, beneteau etc running six packs down here.

 

[krush]

This thread is about chartering rules. I don’t think that the captain citizenship is silly territory as if an owner hires a non US citizen to captain the boat, even on a crewed 6 pack charter, the documentation certificate will be void and the owner exposed to fines.

This may be pure semantics, but let us all be precise in our language. The use of "Captain" in this thread is presumed to mean USA Licensed Master (most likely of 100T). For one to hold a US Merchant Marine License, he/she must be a US citizen. By the way, there are many more licenses out there than just the "captain" 6pack or 100ton master of baiting fish and trolling threads.

A US Documented vessel may only be OWNED by a US Citizen. I've never heard that it may only be OPERATED by a US Citizen. However, if said operation requires a licensed officer (due to charter arrangement), then the "captain" will be a US Citizen (because it is not possible to have a licensed officer that is not a US Citizen).

However, I would like somebody to specifically show the law stating a US Citizen must OPERATE a US Documented vessel. For example, I have not seen anything that forbids a legal resident (non-citizen) from bareboat chartering and operating the vessel himself.

And in regards to the "captain" talk: I brush shoulders with a few guys with unlimited licenses, and it's really funny to hear them all call each other "Captain"*....../sarcasm


*I'll explicitly state this for the dense folks. NO, of course officers with unlimited licenses don't go around introducing themselves as "Capt John".

 

[Passages]

Correct, my son is an unlimited 3rd mate merchant mariner. No one on board refers to another by their title. They all know the pecking order and expect everyone to perform their assigned role.

 

[Freeebird]

Correct, my son is an unlimited 3rd mate merchant mariner. No one on board refers to another by their title. They all know the pecking order and expect everyone to perform their assigned role.

Love the new sig line, but you still have to call me Captain Bird.

 

[Pascal]

If you want to be “precise in our language” you should not “presume”. Many crewed charter boats (6 pax or less) are run by Captains holding an OUPV license. Perfectly legal under 100GT and no more than 6 pax

One does NOT need to be a US citizen to get an OUPV, you only need to be a US citizen if you want to get a Master

Yes, a non citizen can operate a USCG documented vessel but ONLY when the vessel is operated for recreation and if the documentation only shows “ Recreation”. This means a non citizen cannot run a documented boat on crewed charter

Now if the boat has a coastwise endorsement, it can not be run by a non citizen even for recreational purpose. This means the owner of a USCG documented boat with Coastwise endorsement can not hire a non US citizen for private cruises or even a delivery.

Again, only if the boat has a coastwise endorsement.

To be honest I ve never paid attention to this so I m not sure how many boats have a coastwise endorsement. I know the Lazzara 84 I run does, my Hatteras doesn’t.... I think you need to apply for it and the vessel must be US built and can not have been foreign flagged in the past. (Beyond this discussion)

Here is the back side of a USCG Documentatin Certificate with the citizenship restriction.

 

[krush]

If you want to be “precise in our language” you should not “presume”. Many crewed charter boats (6 pax or less) are run by Captains holding an OUPV license. Perfectly legal under 100GT and no more than 6 pax

One does NOT need to be a US citizen to get an OUPV, you only need to be a US citizen if you want to get a Master

...........

We are slowly honing down to get full clarity. However, the "precision" I speak of is still missing. An OUPV is NOT a license. As you stated, to have the Masters, one must be a citizen. Slightly nuanced difference, but there is a difference nonetheless. Thank you for showing the scan and clarifying the coastwise vs recreation differences.

The USCG checklist for ratings and endorsements simplifies much of this. There are two OUPV categories (as you said): All Waters requires citizenship, and restricted/limited OUPV.

Restricted/Limited Master & OUPV requirements: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/NMC/pdfs/checklists/mcp_fm_nmc5_16_web.pdf
OUPV All waters: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/NMC/pdfs/checklists/mcp_fm_nmc5_31_web.pdf


All checklists are available here: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/nmc/checklist/

And I guess all of these credentials allow one to be addressed as "Captain".

edit: on the All Waters OUPV Checklist, there is this note:

NOTE: OUPV, limited to undocumented vessels, may be issued to non U.S. Citizens. They will be drafted with the following limitation: “Limited to Uninspected Vessels Not Documented Under the Laws of the United States.” They will not include entry level ratings unless record of Permanent Resident Alien card provided. A Permanent Resident Alien card is the only acceptable document to issue entry level ratings to non-US Citizens.NOTE: An applicant, who speaks Spanish, but not English, may be issued an OUPV Restricted to Navigable Waters of the United States in the vicinity of Puerto Rico.

 

[Freeebird]

As I understand it, the Master only comes into play when running an inspected vessel. I never looked into all the in's and out's of citizenship requirements as it didn't concern me beyond the fact I was made in the USA. I never intended to run an inspected vessel, even though I was offered a job doing that. Too little money for too much aggravation.

As is the case with a bareboat charter, there is no legal requirement for me to be licensed at all if all I'm doing is delivering boats. It was all about certain insurance companies who require a 100T Master operate the boat. Some have required me to sign off on the fact the boat owner has sufficient expertise in operation to avoid the need to file a claim.

 

[Briankinley2004]

My understanding of a 6PAX is I can have 6 passengers and 3 crew. Thus I can film 5 women in their underwear on my deck while another person who technically did not pay to drive the corporations boat is pilot in command and another is the required coast guard "lookout' and the final passenger/crew member is live streaming the video to potential customers. This can legally be done off a kayak or a 300' ship as long as the coast guard hasn't inspected it and we are within the confines of the license of the captain. This is provided that myself and the "pilot in command" are both USCG licensed 6 PAX OUPV minimum
captains.

 

[Freeebird]

I'm pretty sure it's 299 feet max, and the kayak would have to be made in the USA.