capsize in LI, NY

[Boatsb]

I have not put that many people on my 41c at the dock. There's just not enough room. I can't imagine how 27 people could have found a place to view fireworks from that boat safely.

 

[sportfish 45]

Any calculation for capacity of people based only in length and width is useless. A 34' water taxi might easily hold 27 people because it's designed for that and everyone is close to the waterline. Most boats simply aren't designed for that so your putting substantial weight much higher above the waterline. If the wake caused the capsize how many other boats capsized that night? It's going to come down to overloading causing a loss of stability and the wake simply pushed it over the edge.

I can see the operator being civilly liable for the deaths but not criminally responsible. If stupidity were a crime we'd need a lot more jails.

 

[saltshaker]

According to that calculation, I could carry 78 passengers on my boat. That formula may work for a small runabout but certainly not for anything over 20ft.

 

[Pascal]

Jim, Yes I ve seen that rule of thumb before, I believe boatUS published it in their rag a couple of years ago. It s a very dangerous concept...

Many 53 MYs have been CG inspected and approved for 49 pax... I can't imagine than many people on a 53MY. I ve had up to 35 to 40 on mine for short rides on sheltered water and the boat handled fine at hull speed but it s a lot heavier per ft than a Silverton!


Here in SoFl, we call these SROs.... Standing Room only 30 people in a 35' contender is not an uncommon sight... We often see of those ugly ducking Silverton with the raised decks at the sandbar litteraly covered with people ...

 

[captainwjm]

There is a rule of thumb suggested for use by the Coast Guard Auxiliary for determining the maximum passenger carrying capacity for single-hulled boats under 20 feet in length that don’t have a maximum capacity plate. Safe number of people onboard = boat length (ft) × boat width (ft) ÷ 15; based upon the assumption of a 150 lb. person.

None of the above would apply to the Silverton. However, alot of novice boaters assume that it would apply to any boat. Hence, the inaccurate comments in the various reports that the Silverton wasn't overloaded.

 

[jim rosenthal]

So for example a twenty foot- boat with a five foot beam could theoretically carry 6.7 people of 150 pounds each, or 5.58 people of 180 pounds each..... that seems like the maximum or more that I would want on a boat so small... and the formula doesn't apply to the Silverton in question, which was quite a lot longer than 20 feet. And the idea that 150 pounds ought to be used as the theoretical adult weight is nonsense as well... in the upstate New York boat disaster a few years ago this came up; the boat WAS CG inspected but clearly average adults in the USA no longer weigh 150 pounds, far from it. 150 pounds for me was decades ago, and I am about average build, I regret to say.

 

[Genesis]

Well, how much fuel does that boat carry and how full was it? The more mass down low (below the CG) the better the balance, but if she was light and then loaded up high.....

Figure 17 x 200 (we're all fat these days, right) and 10 (kids) x 80 and you get 4,200lbs, or roughly two tons. The next question is of course "where were they?" as if they're all up high to get the best view of fireworks.....

I'd regularly take more than a dozen people on my 45C for fireworks and other similar "inshore" activities (and did) but more than two dozen on a much-smaller boat?

No.

 

[Boatnut]

Hopefully the idiot news will give some where near an accurate accounting. Before investigation is complete who knows. I think common sense would prevail, but then sometimes that's an obscure concept.

 

[madhatter1]

According to that calculation, I could carry 78 passengers on my boat. That formula may work for a small runabout but certainly not for anything over 20ft.

I am packing now. Will I have my own stateroom or will I need to share?

 

[saltshaker]

I am packing now. Will I have my own stateroom or will I need to share?

With 78 aboard you'll be sharing the ER or pump room with 10 or 12 close friends.

 

[Avenger]

The Admiral found out today that one of the kids was a student at her school. The more we learn the more heartbreaking this gets.

On a slightly different note; as I'm watching the news I'm wondering what they expect to learn by raising this thing? Where the iceberg hit it?

 

[sportfish 45]

I would hope that the CG would replicate the number of people and the way they were positioned and conduct some stability testing on that boat or an identical model. That would give some insight as to whether or not the boat was stable enough to survive reasonable sea conditions and wakes and possibly pin point a cause.

Of course that probably won't happen. Instead some local politicians will start talking about more regulation on manufacturers more no wake zones and a bunch of other crap that will impact those who have the common sense never to put themselves in a situation like this. Meanwhile the stupid will go right on being stupid believing that they need not take responsibility for they're own well being because the regulators have it covered. The politicians will wallow in they're brine and brag about how they alone will prevent another tragity like this from ever happening again. The truth is the only accomplishment of the politician will be some TV time or print space that helps them to get the same stupid people to vote for them. And so it goes in America.

 

[Boatsb]

I would hope that the CG would replicate the number of people and the way they were positioned and conduct some stability testing on that boat or an identical model. That would give some insight as to whether or not the boat was stable enough to survive reasonable sea conditions and wakes and possibly pin point a cause.

Of course that probably won't happen. Instead some local politicians will start talking about more regulation on manufacturers more no wake zones and a bunch of other crap that will impact those who have the common sense never to put themselves in a situation like this. Meanwhile the stupid will go right on being stupid believing that they need not take responsibility for they're own well being because the regulators have it covered. The politicians will wallow in they're brine and brag about how they alone will prevent another tragity like this from ever happening again. The truth is the only accomplishment of the politician will be some TV time or print space that helps them to get the same stupid people to vote for them. And so it goes in America.

Mayne they will hold the owner responsible. They should unless something on the vessel gave way under reasonable use and caused it ti sink.


Stuff happens and being prepared for if is the most important thing that can ne learned here. You can prevent alot but not everything.

 

[saltshaker]

I've yet to hear anything about the boat that waked them. If a boat threw a big enough wake to capsize a 34ft boat, wouldn't someone have seen it? I can see how this could happen given the way many operate their boats after an event like fireworks, but someone including the operator of the boat that capsized should have seen the offending boats. Many witnessed the event but none have mentioned excessive boat wakes or rough conditions due to weather. Anyone know if any other boats experienced any severe conditions? Still hard to believe a 34ft boat could capsize from a wake alone. Curious as to how many were in the cabin and how many were above deck.

 

[luckydave215]

Well, there's this little thing about Admiralty law. It doesn't matter who waked them, how big the boat was, how it was loaded, or what brand it was.


It's the Captain's fault. Period.

 

[jim rosenthal]

One of the people I work with knows one of the families involved. Evidently one of the children that died was a kid with special needs- according to what she told me, his parents were actually below with him and were not able to get him out. I don't know how accurate this all is. And, evidently, lawyers are already involved, of course.

 

[Boatsb]

Its amazing how quickly the lawyers get called in when it hits the fan. The parents of that child should have had the sense to see that boat was overloaded and stayed at the dock.

Everyone should be held responsible for their actions in this and only the children should be without fault.

 

[sgharford]

Kind of on topic in regards to Nassau County Patrol not understanding Latitude and Longitude - you can set your GPS display to multiple different formats such as Degrees, Minutes, Seconds (the standard), Decimal Degree Minutes, or Numerical. If the display was anything other than standard Degrees, Minutes, Seconds - it can really throw you off when someone gives you coordinates. Allot of people f' with their display's and don't know what they are doing. Just saying - it's worth checking you have set correctly before you need to give coordinates - ask me how I know.

 

[Avenger]

It gets worse. Different agencies use different formats. I've always favored deg. min. sec., but I heard that the CG uses decimal. I haven't confirmed that but if it's true I'm going to set my GPSs to that format.

However, since they can be switched to any format Nassau PD still has no excuse. You write them down and switch your GPS to that format, enter them and "Navigate To". We pay these guys six figures and for that kind of money they should be able to do that without craking open the manual.

 

[sgharford]

My GPS display was set to something other than Degrees, Minutes, Seconds a few years back. When I read it off to the Boat US Tow captain he did not know what I was talking about. This captain appeared seasoned and I was between City Island and Throgs Neck Bridge on Long Island Sound, which I told him, yet he still could not make heads or tails of my coordinates. No excuse for Nassau County, but just saying Boat US captain had no idea either and why I make mention of this. Maybe it could've saved a life if this was the case regarding this tragic loss, or maybe even save the lives of someone reading this. One should familiarize themselves with how to physically read off Lat and Longitude as well so when time comes you not wasting time trying to explain the numbers on your display. Honestly, it wasn't until I installed DSC radio and noticed the coordinates were reading different then GPS that I figured out you could change coordinate display on GPS.