Brunswick Corp. is putting its Cabo and Hatteras brands up for sale

[GJH]

You guys are much for history are you? Not just on the tax rate issue either. Go back and look at what the party line vote was on NAFTA. Why? Because the unions were dead set against it, for obvious reasons. And you know who the unions have in their pocket.

Back to taxes, I used the years when the market for our kinds of American made boats was hot. Boating aside, most people would agree that the economy was much healthier and growing better in the 90's vs the 2000's. What were the tax rates back then?

In my opinion, what actually killed the Hatteras motor yacht business the last 12 or 15 years or so, was two things: The rise of tastefully well designed and decently constructed boats from Asia: Fleming, Marlowe, Offshore, Grand Banks, Ocean Alexander, Outer Reef, even Nordhavn, and many others. Between the cost advantages and the appeal to experienced yachtsmen of taste ( or just anyone with some taste), the Clorox bottle Hatts such as the hideous (to my eye) 63/64 MY were doubly unattractive. All those brands rose and grew while Hatt declined. There were plenty of people with the coin to spend on a 60-70 footer. This is where Genmar and then Brunswicks "strategy" of using Hatteras as a step up for their Carver and Sea Ray customers was just a horrible idea.

 

[krush]

Lots of stuff is made in USA and we export lots of things too. People hate on Wal Mart, but they probably have more stuff made in USA than Target or other similar stores.

I just finished doing some developmental work with engine control systems. All the components I used were made in USA. Electronic throttle body, engine controller, etc. Also, I had to get a voltage regulator from Flight Systems---made in the USA.

I believe will see more and more stuff coming back from China. The model just doesn't fit anymore. The marginal decrease in cost isn't worth the headache for many companies. Once the new breed of MBA's get it (if MBA is even relevant in the new economy), changes will slowly occur.

 

[Avenger]

According to most of the manufacturing trade publications 2014 is the year that actual total costs of mfg in the US vs. China break even. That's factoring in shipping and other costs that result from having factories thousands of miles away.

Things are already starting to re-shore. i.e. GE has expanded it's appliance facilities in KY, bringing back jobs that had been exported.

That's all fine until we find the next backwater where there's no OSHA, EEOC, EPA or any of the other acronyms that drive up US manufacturing costs.

 

[captddis]

You guys are much for history are you? Not just on the tax rate issue either. Go back and look at what the party line vote was on NAFTA. Why? Because the unions were dead set against it, for obvious reasons. And you know who the unions have in their pocket.

Back to taxes, I used the years when the market for our kinds of American made boats was hot. Boating aside, most people would agree that the economy was much healthier and growing better in the 90's vs the 2000's. What were the tax rates back then?

In my opinion, what actually killed the Hatteras motor yacht business the last 12 or 15 years or so, was two things: The rise of tastefully well designed and decently constructed boats from Asia: Fleming, Marlowe, Offshore, Grand Banks, Ocean Alexander, Outer Reef, even Nordhavn, and many others. Between the cost advantages and the appeal to experienced yachtsmen of taste ( or just anyone with some taste), the Clorox bottle Hatts such as the hideous (to my eye) 63/64 MY were doubly unattractive. All those brands rose and grew while Hatt declined. There were plenty of people with the coin to spend on a 60-70 footer. This is where Genmar and then Brunswicks "strategy" of using Hatteras as a step up for their Carver and Sea Ray customers was just a horrible idea.

It is not only the taxes. When I bought my Hatt in 2002 diesel fuel was 1.09 within a few years I was paying right at 5.00/gal with tax. Insurance premiums have tripled in the same amount of time.
Due to the environmental wackos bottom paint is now 250.00/gallon. Motor oil is close to 20.00/gallon. transient dockage was around 75 cents to a dollar a ft now it averages 2.00/ft.
During the real estate boom we lost hundreds of marinas and service yards.

The Govt has closed fishing to many types of fish and many people sold their boats as it was not worth the expense to go out.
Then 9/11 came along. Now the CG and every govt agency all of the sudden got a lot of funding so they spend their time harrassing Americans who just want to go boating.

Then the Manatee wackos got politicians ears and close fishing areas to boating and in some places stopped the building of docks.

Lets not forget the Crooks in Washington and their corrupt banker friends who have caused our dollar to drop 40% in the last few years.

Bottom line is the upper middle class is becoming extinct, and can no longer afford yachts.

 

[saltshaker]

It is not only the taxes. When I bought my Hatt in 2002 diesel fuel was 1.09 within a few years I was paying right at 5.00/gal with tax. Insurance premiums have tripled in the same amount of time.
Due to the environmental wackos bottom paint is now 250.00/gallon. Motor oil is close to 20.00/gallon. transient dockage was around 75 cents to a dollar a ft now it averages 2.00/ft.
During the real estate boom we lost hundreds of marinas and service yards.

The Govt has closed fishing to many types of fish and many people sold their boats as it was not worth the expense to go out.
Then 9/11 came along. Now the CG and every govt agency all of the sudden got a lot of funding so they spend their time harrassing Americans who just want to go boating.

Then the Manatee wackos got politicians ears and close fishing areas to boating and in some places stopped the building of docks.

Lets not forget the Crooks in Washington and their corrupt banker friends who have caused our dollar to drop 40% in the last few years.

Bottom line is the upper middle class is becoming extinct, and can no longer afford yachts.

I was just having a similar conversation with a fellow boater last night. I remember looking at one of the last 60 Bertrams back in '03. It was 1.7 million fully rigged w/tower. A new 57 Bertram is 3 million. Same holds true for Hatteras and Viking. The cost to buy and own these boats is rising at an incredible rate. I don't know of any careers that have seen this rate of increase in income, particularly in the last 10 years. We've hit the point where even those that can easily afford these boats and the cost of ownership, and saying enough is enough.

 

[34Hatt]

It is not only the taxes. When I bought my Hatt in 2002 diesel fuel was 1.09 within a few years I was paying right at 5.00/gal with tax. Insurance premiums have tripled in the same amount of time.
Due to the environmental wackos bottom paint is now 250.00/gallon. Motor oil is close to 20.00/gallon. transient dockage was around 75 cents to a dollar a ft now it averages 2.00/ft.
During the real estate boom we lost hundreds of marinas and service yards.

The Govt has closed fishing to many types of fish and many people sold their boats as it was not worth the expense to go out.
Then 9/11 came along. Now the CG and every govt agency all of the sudden got a lot of funding so they spend their time harrassing Americans who just want to go boating.

Then the Manatee wackos got politicians ears and close fishing areas to boating and in some places stopped the building of docks.

Lets not forget the Crooks in Washington and their corrupt banker friends who have caused our dollar to drop 40% in the last few years.

Bottom line is the upper middle class is becoming extinct, and can no longer afford yachts.

I was just having a similar conversation with a fellow boater last night. I remember looking at one of the last 60 Bertrams back in '03. It was 1.7 million fully rigged w/tower. A new 57 Bertram is 3 million. Same holds true for Hatteras and Viking. The cost to buy and own these boats is rising at an incredible rate. I don't know of any careers that have seen this rate of increase in income, particularly in the last 10 years. We've hit the point where even those that can easily afford these boats and the cost of ownership, and saying enough is enough.

This here pretty much sums it up the only thing Dave missed is Dockage " But he wouldn't know about that" I bought my Hatt in 2000 fuel was a $1.00 here in NY. My dockage was about $2,500 prime spot, by 2009 it was $5,200 for the same slip. Stuff was double to quadruple Except my PAY

Past two years we were held to a 1% raise this year 3% But s.s went up Federal went up and what is left at the end of the month will buy dinner at McDonald's maybe.

 

[saltshaker]

This here pretty much sums it up the only thing Dave missed is Dockage " But he wouldn't know about that" I bought my Hatt in 2000 fuel was a $1.00 here in NY. My dockage was about $2,500 prime spot, by 2009 it was $5,200 for the same slip. Stuff was double to quadruple Except my PAY

Past two years we were held to a 1% raise this year 3% But s.s went up Federal went up and what is left at the end of the month will buy dinner at McDonald's maybe.

When I bought my 46C in '99 I was paying $65ft for my summer slip. Now the rate around here is $150ft. That's $9750 just for the summer. Some are even higher. Transient rates are 4ft at most of the better marinas. My wife is one of those "high paid teachers" as so many tell us. I just came across one of her pay stubs from '09. She's making slightly more now but her take home pay is $272 month less than it was back in '09. I work for myself and our combined household income is less than what I typically made on my own a few years back. That's progress!

 

[34Hatt]

When I bought my 46C in '99 I was paying $65ft for my summer slip. Now the rate around here is $150ft. That's $9750 just for the summer. Some are even higher. Transient rates are 4ft at most of the better marinas. My wife is one of those "high paid teachers" as so many tell us. I just came across one of her pay stubs from '09. She's making slightly more now but her take home pay is $272 month less than it was back in '09. I work for myself and our combined household income is less than what I typically made on my own a few years back. That's progress!

Well now since you brought the wives in to it
My wife lost her job 4 years ago High end watch company so you know how that ended. She is working again but started much lower and just got her second raise last week in 4 years but is still way below 5 years ago. So yes our combined is way less than 5 years ago. Guess this is the Change they talk about

 

[captddis]

Dan,
Funny you mention docks.
We are at a crossroad. Our little beach house is in need of a makeover. It is impossible to do some of the things we would like to have in a house to this house. We keep looking around and the only way we could do it is to move off of the beach. Problem is the cost of docking the two boats would be too much for us to afford.

 

[saltshaker]

Well now since you brought the wives in to it
My wife lost her job 4 years ago High end watch company so you know how that ended. She is working again but started much lower and just got her second raise last week in 4 years but is still way below 5 years ago. So yes our combined is way less than 5 years ago. Guess this is the Change they talk about

In the end all were left with is change, maybe enough to pay a toll on the Parkway.

 

[krush]

Well to make ya'll feel better. I never got to enjoy cheap gas/diesel and the "good times" as an adult. I was just a lil boy living with daddy and mommy. By the time I got a job and some of my own money, everything was expensive!

At least most of ya'll got to enjoy the good times haha. I'll be fine though. It just takes a completely different mindset to do well in the post 2000 world. Diesel will probably come back down to 2-3bux a gallon eventually. I don't think under two is realistic though. As for good paying middle class jobs...we can all wish.

Cost of labor is so high in the USA that productivity with machines and computers is way up and there just isn't as much need for humans. So we drift towards throwing people money so they don't revolt.

Read this book, I liked the guys harsh opinions..plus he went to VA Tech! http://www.starvingthemonkeys.com/

 

[thoward]

The large center console market has also put pressure on the sporties. Coastal development and reliable engines now mean you can get there fast and stay in comfort. There has also been a revolution on the fishing gear side so you don't need 80-130 class reels for the big guys. In many respects, it is much easier to fish a CC and the maintenance is minimal comparatively.

I could see Cabo doing well in the 35-45' range with the POD technology. The sportfish market seems to be dying a slow death and the ones I do see are custom.

 

[Boatsb]

In the end all were left with is change, maybe enough to pay a toll on the Parkway.

Not any parkways around where you live. They cost more than just a bit of change.

 

[saltshaker]

Not any parkways around where you live. They cost more than just a bit of change.

That's just cruel, true but cruel. I'll remember that every day when I pay my $12 toll for the privilege to drive through the Lincoln Tunnel.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Somehow, somewhere, Hatteras went from being a leader (first company to build large FRP powerboats in USA, inventor of convertible style yachts, builders of many of the most successful MY and convertible designs of the late 20th century)... to being a follower: the Euro designs of the 90s stand out in my mind. When Hatteras began business, they were out in front setting styles and trends; somehow, they ended up following them. Not a good thing, and it hasn't had a good outcome, either. I hope things improve. I don't know if it's possible for them to ever be out front again, but maybe a well-built handsome boat with their respected name on it is still something to aspire to. I hope so, anyway.

 

[fissioneng]

Demise maybe started when Jack Hargrave stopped designing?

You also can only be first with something once.

 

[Boatsb]

That's just cruel, true but cruel. I'll remember that every day when I pay my $12 toll for the privilege to drive through the Lincoln Tunnel.

Dont blame us. Florida did not repeat the mistake. you guys in the entitlement belt need to take a good look at the land of nuts and fairies. Their so broke they cant pay attention.

 

[bobk]

Dan,
Funny you mention docks.
We are at a crossroad. Our little beach house is in need of a makeover. It is impossible to do some of the things we would like to have in a house to this house. We keep looking around and the only way we could do it is to move off of the beach. Problem is the cost of docking the two boats would be too much for us to afford.

captdis,

As I recall you are on the west coast of Florida. If you can move east to Port St Lucie and enjoy a 1700 sq ft condo, you can have waterfront with docks etc. My 50' dock is $600/year, 25' is $300/year.

Bobk

 

[jim rosenthal]

I would agree that all the best Hatteras Yachts designs that I can think of are Hargrave designs. But I know some of the later boats were done by Dudley Dawson and the "Hatteras Design Team", whoever that was. And some of them are really handsome yachts. I don't know the history of the company's models well enough to pinpoint where things went wrong. The model that always stands out in my mind as the wrong direction is the Euro series of yachts- I think the 64 MY may have been the first of them, maybe? I remember being at a Hatteras event in St. Michaels, MD, years ago, and they had one of those and also I think a 77MY, much more traditional design, both there, and I didn't think the 64 looked much like a Hatteras.

Ironically, a modern Krogen or Marlow seems to look more like what I think a Hatteras ought to look like than a Euro-style Hatteras does. Mind you, my taste opinions don't count for much since I am not a potential buyer.

 

[TopHattandTails]

Well, it looks like the Healy's are going to capture some more market share. I just viewed the conceptual plans for the new Viking 75 motor yacht. 4 staterooms + crew. Looks reminiscent of a Recent Hatt, but with better lines and better windows. Really nice hardtop and bridge area. We'll see what actually gets built...