Allison Trans spin-on filters

[mike]

Has anyone experienced a pressure failure of a spin-on filter after converting from the org. canister type Allison transmission filter? I am concerned because I am told the spin-on filters are designed for lower pressure engine oil applications. I have also been told some seal blow-out failures have occurred on transmission applications, but mostly on pressures above 200+ psi. Any insight is appreciated, as I am about to make the conversion for reasons of convenience. Thanks, Mike

 

[MikeP]

I have spin-ons on our M20's (previous owner installed them). He had them converted in 1997 per the invoice. So they have been running on the boat for 7 years with no problems.

The filters are MUCH heavier construction than your basic automotive Fram, which would be instantly blown apart by the tranny's 200+psi (mine run at around 255PSI). There has never been any sign of seepage at the gaskets so I must conclude the filters are more than adequate for the task.

The pic shows the remote tranny and eng oil filters mounted on the outboard (hull) side of the ing compartment. In the pic, taken last season, the white fleetguard filter is on the tranny, the red Baldwin is on the eng. I now use Baldwins for both; they take the same filter although I use Baldwin B95s on the Tranny and B95MPGs on the engines. The MPGs are 10 micron as I recall while the B95s are 30.

 

[Nonchalant1]

Has anyone experienced a pressure failure of a spin-on filter after converting from the org. canister type Allison transmission filter? I am concerned because I am told the spin-on filters are designed for lower pressure engine oil applications. I have also been told some seal blow-out failures have occurred on transmission applications, but mostly on pressures above 200+ psi. Any insight is appreciated, as I am about to make the conversion for reasons of convenience. Thanks, Mike

Mike,

I'd be very interested in what adapters you use and how you install them. I have the old cannister type and they work OK, but hard to get to and hard to measure the 50# torque required.

BTW - how often do you guys actually change trans filters? I changed them 200 hrs. ago and I was going to go another 200. Even though the DD manual says every 200 hrs, the local DD tech says it's not necessary.

Doug Shuman

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I bought my adapters at my local NAPA store. They just bolt right on to the old cannister base. I told them that they were for a Detroit and they knew exactly which ones to get. Apparently DD/Allison used the same cannisters on most everything for years.

 

[Walter P]

Mike....

I like your installlation. You stated that you had the paperwork from 1997 for the parts. If it would not be too much trouble, can you dig it up and post the part numbers and source as I to would like set mine up that way. Thanks, Walt

 

[MikeP]

Walt,

Sorry - the invoice only shows that the work was done, it doesn't list any part numbers.

Re oil changes...this will sound heretical but I see no reason to change tranny oil/filters at all unless there is some indication - like discoloring of the oil - that indicates some need for it. Transmissions have no combustion so the oil isn't going to break down. I changed them when I bought the boat just for the heck of it - I don't know when it had last been done but the oil I drained looked new. The current oil on the dipstick looks and smells new.

I frankly also wonder about the need for changing engine oil for winterizing. I do it because it's so ingrained in "common knowledge," but the reasons seem vague at best. The acids that may attack bearings are formed when water is present. If the engines are run up to normal operating temps, any condensation is removed. Additionally, if condensation forms at all over the winter, where is it going to be? Since it's heavier than oil, any water will be in the BOTTOM of the oil pan. And how much water could possibly condense? I can't imagine it would be any measurable amount. I'm leaning to the opinion that changing the oil just FOR WINTERIZING is a waste of time and oil.

Anyone know if there is any SCIENTIFIC study of this?

 

[dwaynec]

I too have wondered about the need to change the oil in the trannys. I just changed mine this year, after going a couple years without changing, and the oil still looked like it was straight out of the can.

I typically change the engine oil each year at winterizing time because the mains get about a hundred hours put on them each year. That way I don't have to schedule another maintenance day during the all too short boating season. Even after a hundred hours the oil is still pretty good looking. Maybe a little more golden than when new, but definitely not anywhere near black like the oil in my genny. The genny oil turns black within minutes of being changed, even though it gets changed every hundred hours. Go figure!

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I kinda agree with Mike. I like to change engine oil in the spring instead of doing it in the fall. My reasoning was similar to his in that if there is any condensation over the winter, I want to get it out of there in the spring. As far as trannies, I treat them like a hydralic system on a piece of large machinery. If I don't see noticable changes in oil color let em go, but don't go more than 2 or 3 seasons without changing. You can get small metal shavings in the filters and not even know it just by looking at the oil. If you have a changer, you don't have the benefit of a magnetic plug to see this with either, so dump the filters and look at what comes out. If you find something in there, it can give you a heads up before a complete failure. You also have to consider the condensation issue with the trannies. Let em go to long and you could be asking for trouble.

 

[DLCameron2]

I changed my M20's filters to spin on last winter. Here are the P/N's:

Adapters:

AC # = K4
DDC # = 25010854
Fram #: K3390

I use a FRAM PH3690 although if you have room for the bigger filter you could use a FRAM PH3612.

Hope this helps.

DC

 

[mike]

Thanks for insight guys.... I can now make the conversion with confidence that I am not creating a new problem. FWIW, I purchased the adapters from Acadian Marine Transmission, 217 Burgess Drive Broussard, LA 70518(888-493-4327). The delco/GM part number is 25010854. Apparently they are the same adapters that are used to convert the engine oil filter. Mike

 

[mike]

MikeP996, you mentioned your transmissions run at 255 PSI, are they M20's? The reason for the question is because mine are set at about 130 to 150 psi., and my DD Alison manual indicates the pressure for M/MH series should be from 90 to 125 psi. Mike

 

[J's Dream]

Mike,
I'm glad you said that. Reading all these posts, I was beginnig to wonder if I had a serious problem. Normal trans pressure on mine is between 110 and 125.

 

[mike]

J,

The previous comments worried me so much I went back and double checked my manual, and it reads as I said in the previous post, 90 to 125 psi. I suspected there may have been a change on later models, so I called Acadian, and they indicated some of the guys with higher HP and bigger wheels run them at higher pressure. However the spec is 90 to 125 psi at an average operating temp of 200 deg F. Acadian says to set them between 135 to 150 max. off idle and warmed up. Its a simple job to adjust the presure setting if you have the right pump with the external check valve. Caution though, as the setting is very sensitive to very small adjustments of less than a full turn of the adj. screw. Mike

 

[MikeP]

re my tranny pressure; I realize that the tranny pressure is higher than called for. Last season I was initially concerned with the pressure when we bought the boat but after purchasing the service manual and comparing the actual pressure with the manual's specs, I seem to recall that the tranny manual called for 225 or thereabouts so it wasn't dramatically different. Whatever it was, I decided that since it was working fine and wasn't all that much out of spec, I'd leave it alone. Obviously the specs you all are quoting are quite a bit different - perhaps I misread the pressure in the manual. I'll check the manual again this weekend. It's a long way from 125PSI to 255!

Both trannys are M20s and are within 4 PSI of each other on new mechanical gauges mounted in the eng room.

 

[Pascal]

same here, my Allisons are running around 120psi. the manual specifies the pressures at idle, in gear and in reverse (reverse is lower)

 

[REBrueckner]

My mechanic, a long time DD diesel certified worker in marine engines, told me 500 hours is fine for my Allisons. When I changed oil at that interval, it looked and smelled perfect but I figured an oil and filter change was cheap insurance.

 

[MikeP]

I rechecked the service specs for the M20, and as others have stated, the pressure is supposed to be 130PSI in forward at 1800 RPM; 110PSI in reverse at 1500 RPM. I cannot figure out what I had read previously that led me to believe that the 255PSI was not all that far above specs. Obviously, it is waaay above!

But, at the same time, it's been running those pressures at least since 1995. I have the logbook for the boat dating back to then and everytime he took it out, the previous owner logged the rpm, temps and pressures on the engines/transmissions and made pertinent comments as appropriate (Ex-Navy WWII destroyer man). It's superb info and I continue following his excellent example by keeping the log current. So since it's been running that pressure for 10 years, I guess it's happy doing so. Also, although I don't know for sure, I'll make the assumption that, for whatever reason, he intentionally modified the pressure (his son is a DD service tech and did most of the boat's mechanical work). Perhaps it was to increase oil circulation or to more firmly engage the clutches or both - sort of like a racing rebuild of a car automatic tranny. Beats me but since it's working fine, I'll leave it alone

 

[MikeP]

Well don't I feel REALLY STUPID...

I have no idea how I managed to do this but the pressure readings I quoted on my trannies - around 255 PSI should have been 155 PSI - the gauge doesn't even go to 255. I have no idea why I remembered the reading as 255. The logbook also shows the 154-156 range which again, for some reason, I remembered yesterday (not having looked at it) as 254, etc.

So when I originally determined that it wasn't an issue last year, it's because the pressure was 155 instead of the spec's 130. It was not, and never has been 255.

Kinda scary and, as the old saying goes, "The mind is a terrible thing..."

 

[SKYCHENEY]

That's good 'cause I was kinda hoping those spin-on's would contain the oil at 255psi and not burst, throwing oil all over that nice, clean ER of yours.