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53 convertable

Scott Mather

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
227
Hatteras Model
52' CONVERTIBLE (1983 - 1990)
looking at a couple of 1970's 53 C

Looking for estimated cruise speed/range/GPH

Difference between 892's and 12 71's 550 hp range

Thanks,
 
If they were both the same hp,I guess the speed would be close,considering the 12-V's are heavier. In my opinion the 12V-71 is a better engine than an 8V-92. The 12V-71 wasn't usually built in hp ranges that caused it so self-destruct as the 8V-92 did.

Except for the small bridges and the tight engine rooms,the old 53's are just an awsome boat.
 
I have 892ti's in my 53C and with full fuel my cruise is 18.1 @1950rpm, burn is approx 48gph. At hull speed 9.5 I get 1nmpg including the 15kw onan. I would also have to say that I don't agree with Buster, The 92 series is a great engine as long as they are NOT tweaked to the high HP. (750/892 or 550/692)

Chris
Superior Nights 53C
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and sentiments,but the fact is that the 8V-92 series was the final nail in Detroit Diesels's coffin. You see the truck engine business was the heart of Detroit's marketshare. Detroit had more warranty claims "mostly bad counterbores and block decks"on the 92 series than they could cover.Trying to shore up their truck engine reputation Detroit soon introduced the "silver 92" series,same problems. Soon no one in the trucking industry would buy one and after a while even the sweetest KW 900WL or Pete 379 with a 8V-92 could not be given away.Detroit tried to save it's truck market share with the 60 series and it is a very good engine,a little light on torque and endurance compared to CAT or especially the 15liter Cummins,but acceptable.

I can't even begin to count the number of DD to CAT or Cummins conversions our shop did during that hiatus.So if you have an 8V-92 rated under 735hp,you treat it well and it has been good to you that's a good thing indeed. But I can't remember ever seeing many catastrophic failures of 12V-71's in my 40 plus years of diesel repair.
 
Scott
I have the 12V-71's in my 1972 53c . I cruise @ 18kt', 2175rpm, approx 50gph, 550 hp.
David
 
An awsome boat and a real classic, but a bit of a fuel hog for moderate cruise speed....wet like most Hatt's of the era....gotta love em though...

regarding engines, I do know one thing:
commercial fisherman/lobstermen/scallopers from Maine to NY do NOT go for 92 series...lots of old 71 series, though!!! CAT's seem most popular in new boats and repowers, Deere too. I have seen few Cummins, don't know why....
 
One of the reasons you see Cats in New Boats is they will floor plan the boat if you use their engines.

I repowerd a 53C with Cummins QSM 11 660 hp. I can cruise at 18 - 20 kts. Fuel burn is 36-38 gal per hour at 18 and 42-46 gph
at 20 kts.
I know someone in the middle of a 53c repower with the 715 hp QSM, I also know where an updated 53c is for sale at a very reasonable price. PM if you need to know.
 
Do the higher HP QSM's enjoy CAT longevity...or is the 700 HP range too much???
 
So far so good,you know Cummins has always been an ultra-conservative company when it comes to jeopardizing their reputation. I believe that is why they were slow to develop their high hp small "under 14 liter" marine engine market,until the advent of electronic engine control systems were perfected.

I remember well when I bought my first N-14 Celect rated at 525hp.Remember,these aren't puffed up marine engines with 10% or 20% duty cycles,these ratings are 100% pedal to the metal duty cycle ratings. My old friend who both owns the Kenworth dealership and is a great Cummins and CAT mechanic sold me the truck. He claimed outright that the N-14 was a million mile engine and I would never see the inside of one before a million miles was on it. I now own seven high horsepower N-14's two have well over a million miles on them,use no oil and I still have not opened them up for major repairs.
 
I have 535 qsm11's in my 45. My cummins dealer says I should expect 10,000 hours before rebuild. Also he said I could boost them to 660 with injectors and computer reprogram. I'm happy with burn and speed as is.
 
I would tend to avoid a boat with 92 series engines also. My understanding is that a lot of the problems with 92 series engines had to do with their wet sleeves and sealing rings; is that in fact the case? I think 71 series engines are more reliable, although they are heavy and don't make much power for their weight. But they make the power they make for a long time, if taken care of.

(We had a thread a while back here having to do with 92-series Detroits. I think the dividing line on power was 485 or 490 out of the V6 ones and about 650 out of the V8 ones- beyond that and you had your choice of which would blow up first, port or starboard. Mind you, 71 series with the wick turned way up weren't noted for their longevity either, but most of those didn't come from DD- they came from hot-rod marinizers like Stewart/Stevenson, J&T, and Covington.

When I first got interested in boating, which was in the early to mid 80s, DD had the lion's share of the market. Some boats had Caterpillars- the only engine they built was the 3160/3208, which they kept increasing the HP rating of- and Cummins, which made 555s, 370s, and 903s in various forms. Most 903s went into Coast Guard boats, which says something about their reliability. But I'll guess that 7 out of 10 domestically built boats with diesels had Detroits.

In the higher horsepower end of the market, there wasn't anything else. If you wanted a big boat, you got big Detroits. (there were a few boats built with big Caterpillar sixes, which were excellent engines, but very few were installed) At one point there were 12 cylinder and 16 cylinder versions of the 71 and 92 series engines, all very heavy and fantastically complex with superchargers, turbochargers (two to four of them) aftercoolers, intercoolers, oil coolers, oil-to-water coolers, and if you paid extra, a water cooler for your mechanics to stand around. Because with those engines HP ratings and the inevitable short lives of essential pieces, you had mechanics around a lot. This was before the modern era of lightweight reliable four-stroke diesels. The engine designers could squeeze a lot of power out of the vintage Detroit design using forced induction and big injectors but the reliability suffered greatly.

The basic design of the two-cycle diesel dates back, I think, to Winton, who pioneered the concept in the thirties or forties. If you visit the Baltimore Railroad Museum, you can see vintage two-cycle diesels there which are retired locomotive engines. They look exactly like old Detroits. They are, in operation and nomenclature, exactly like old Detroits. You wouldn't want to be the guy who had to pick up and move one.)

I took Caterpillars out, while they had few enough hours to sell them, and put in Cummins diesels. No engine is perfect, but I think Cummins has their act together a lot better than Cat does. A 53 convertible with M11s sounds great. A Series 2 45C with M11s sounds even better- faster, a little bit more nimble, and better bridge setup. Either one would be a nice boat.
 
Have to agree with Jim here on several points. Having owned 71 and 92 series Detroits, the 71's last longer. Even the lower HP 92's won't last as long as most 71's. If you push the 71's too far, they too will fail early.

I've looked at several 53's over the years and the 1271 boats are always easier to sell than the 892 boats. 650HP 1271's are always the most in demand (at least what demand there is). Three staterooms instead of the two stateroom layout (there's a single stateroom 53 in NJ that is gorgeous and no one wants it).

I also like the Cummins over the Cats but if I were to repower a 53 I think I would want something bigger than the QSM11's. There are a few out there with 3406E Cats that claim pretty good numbers. The Cat C18's in the 900HP range would be great, but expensive. If I were to put that much into an older Hatt in this size range, I would be looking for a tired 52C or even a 55C.

QSM11's in a series II 45C or better yet a 46C would be a great choice. Fast, quiet and somewhat economical.
 
The 6v92s up to 500HP are ok in recreational service. The 8vs, up to ~650.

Beyond that you're asking for it. The line is roughly 0.9hp/cid; beyond that you're in the trouble zone.

Remember we're talking 552 cid for the 6V92s and 736cid for the 8V92s.

For the 6-71 its 426cid, meaning that 380HP is the maximum SAFE output if you want good service life. The 450 and 485s are hand grenades with a missing pin.

The biggest issue with the 92s in particular is that their heat exchangers are undersized on the mechanical engines. This has a LOT to do with their original ratings in the ~350-380HP range - the tanks were NOT CHANGED when they were cranked up for "pleasure use."

Heat rejection at 350HP is "plenty"; at 500HP "not so good" and at 550 its "one tiny little problem and..."

All it takes is ONE mild overheat on a wet-liner engine and you're hosed as the seals will be compromised. On Detroits in general you have a very complex head casting, which is prone to cracking on overheats as well. Between those two realities you simply cannot let these engines overheat.

The MAJORITY of failures that I've seen on these motors that are not (1) exhaust ingesting related or (2) due to a botched overhaul - things like busted cranks - have at their root overheating at some point in the engine's service life.

71s are tougher to overhaul CORRECTLY as there is an entire procedure for fitting the new liners which MUST be followed EXACTLY. If you don't have solid contact between the liner and block you will get localized overheating of the liner at the point where contact is not made resulting in premature failure.

I have pulled kits on several of these engines where the owner claims that they were "never" overheated, only to find compromised seals - obvious heat damage.

Detroits are GOOD engines if used within a reasonable set of parameters. But they ARE old technology and they're VERY heavy for what you get out of them.

When it comes to rebuild .vs. repower its not nearly so simple. You have to run a LOT of hours to justify a repower on the numbers.

The difference in operation, however, is not subtle. There's a major social difference with modern 4-strokes - they are MUCH quieter - and this is not to be ignored, but putting a price on that is difficult.

Were I buying right now I would certainly favor a repowered boat, especially if it had M11 Cummins in it. I've been on a 45C Series II with those engines and it is an ENTIRELY different boat than mine was with 92s. MUCH quieter, MUCH faster at the same fuel burn. The change is NOT subtle but the price difference isn't either.
 
One thing that bothers me about repowers is one of the "advantages" that is often mentioned, the weight reduction vs the old Detroits. If you look at a 53 out of the water it's always surprising to me to see how little of the hull is actually below the water line. So it seems to me that the weight of the engines is a major part of the boat's stability and I assume that Mr H designed the hulls with that weight in mind for stability. The DDs weigh over 3000 lbs each from what I remember. New engines weigh half that or less. It would seem to me that loosing this "ballast" that low in the boat could cause some problems, increasing a tendency to roll.

Maybe this is not the case but I'd really want to be sure about it before I removed that much weight from what seems to me to be a critical area.

Fortunately I have no plans to change. As Charlton Heston probably said, "Along with my guns, they'll also have to pull my DDs from my cold, dead hands!"
 
On the 45C I was on I noted no misbehavior or increase in roll rate or severity, but that's a sportfish with a lower CG.

A MY with more superstructure up higher may have a bigger issue with this.

I'm quite sure that a material part of the performance difference with the engine change is the weight decrease; the M11s are ~2600lbs each, by the way (sans gear), which isn't THAT different than the 6V92 (around 3100lbs). However, its a LOT more power and the gear is considerably lighter.

Of course if you're comparing against the 8V92 then the difference is far more significant; those are listed by DD as ~4400lbs each. That's a MAJOR difference.
 
Last edited:
Thanks, for all the great info.

From what I am hearing the 550 hp 8v92 and the 550 hp 12v71 are both going to be good reliable motors if taken care of, Also looks like being taken care of is a requirement for any diesel engine that you want to last a long time. Back to original question, have been looking at a couple of 53's c older 1970's boats with the 12v71's 550 hp (what do these weigh?) with old style bottom what are you seeing for cruise speed/rpm and GPH fuel burn. Have also looked at newer style late 70's with the 550 HP 8v92's (what do these weigh?). On the newer boats with prop pockets and the 8v92's are the numbers going to be better?
We are going to buy a 53c, that has already been determined, not interested in repowering a boat, not interested in a hot rod. Just trying to decide if the 8v92 boat is going to provide any different performance vs same hp 12v71.
One more question, what about cost and ease of rebuilding these two motors.

Thanks again,

Scott,
 
Thanks, also for the two examples of the different motor performance's.

1979 53 with 8v92's 18.1 knots at 1950 rpm. (full fuel) 48 gph
1972 53 with 12v71's 18 knots at 2175 rpm 50 gph.

looks to be similar performance, what is full throttle rpm and cruise rpm recommended for both motors.

Thanks,
 
The 1271 boat should cruise in the 17kt range with a 20kt top end. The 8V92 boat should cruise in the 18kt range with a 22kt top end. You can get a bit more out of either boat with a full length spray rail. the 1271N's will outlast all of us. Unlikely they will need a total rebuild if they are cared for. The 8V92's should give good service at that HP rating, but not nearly what you'll get from the 1271N's. Fuel consumption @2100rpm should be around 45-50 gph for either engine, depending on load. The 8V92's mshould use slightly less.

Either way, you are looking at the less desireable 53's. The newer boats with prop pockets and the larger 1271TI's are more in demand and will cost more $. Use this to your advantage. A decent 53 with 1271N's should be around $100K. The 8V92 boat might be slightly more since it will be a later model.

I would start with a call to Tom Slane 336-861-6100. He has a 1970 53 that they have been working on but is now for sale for 75K. http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...sting_id=61961&url=&hosturl=slane&&ywo=slane&
Either way Tom can answer all your questions and help you find the right 53C.
 
That boat over at Slane's is the one I'd buy if I was looking for a 53.

Sheeit that's a screaming deal.
 
Something doesn't seem right about that Slane deal. He does top notch work and it appears a $150k refit has just been performed. Why would it be listed for half that?

A typo? Did it sink at the slip? Dunno....

Screaming deal if there ever was one. I may have to call Tom myself.
 

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