45 Sea Trial at the Rendevous

[JimmyB]

Well I did a sea trial on the 45 I have a contract on. Big Bill and I stayed over after the Rendezvous Monday and ran it. As a refresher it is a 1972 45 with 871-TI's.
On a cold start the port engine fired instantly with only a small puff of smoke and idled smoothly. The starboard started a bit slower and had an equal puff of smoke. Both cleaned up instantly.

While running down the ditch the Flybridge tachs were erratic initially, but settled down and matched the salon set. At full throttle, on plane we reached about 2200 RPM and had no steam or smoke. It ran cleanly and very smooth.

The Port engine ran about 190 degrees but the Starboard went between 210 and 215. If we slowed to a slower cruise the Stbd went down in temp to 195 or so.

I have requested the broker solve the overheat problem before going forward. The rest of the boat looked good and a number of HOF'ers felt it looked good. It was nice having so many eyes to check it out.

My question is does anyone have suggestions past Heat Exchangers and impellers. If that is all that is wrong I want to go forward but am concerned about a "worst case scenario" Any and all opinions are solicited. I am a member of Boat Diesel and will post this there also. Thanks to all who submit any info. By the way Billy correct me if I am mistaken on any numbers here.

Jimmy

 

[saltshaker]

Has the boat been in the water awhile and not used? You may have a fouled bottom and intakes. All those temps are too high but 210-215 is dangerously high and could do damage. Since you aren't reaching rated full load rated 2300RPM and you're running hot I would start there. If the bottom and intakes are clean, then you have to check the cooling system and make sure the boat reaches full no load RPM. What were your temps like at 1950-2000RPM and what speeds were you reaching? How does the owner run the boat and what RPM and speed does he cruise at? Don't skip a full mechanical survey. If she has been run hot and overloaded, you could have serious problems regardless of the hours reported. All may be fine but don't take it for granted just because she has low hours on recent rebuilds.

 

[REBrueckner]

Post above is right on....other simple issues to detect: cooling system low on coolant. Bad news: any lube oil in coolant would screw with proper temperature operation.

Original thermostats or were they changed?? What temp?? If 160's both engines have serious overheating issue.

Anbody stick a finger in the heater exchanger or overflow tank to see if there is any oil residue on the under sides of the top or the expansion tank??....

 

[JimmyB]

The boat had a Sea Trial about a month ago and failed. After that a diver went down and did some cleaning which resulted in my results. The boat has about 1600 hours total with hardly any use in the last couple of years.

My position is to have them solve the overheating before an engine survey. What is the point of paying a couple of thousand to diagnose, and find the problem is severe and expensive.

I plan to run mostly at hull speed, but do not want a vessel with problems. I do plan on a complete engine survey regardless.

I am waiting to see if the owner will determine what causes the overheat situation.

Jimmy

 

[ThirdHatt]

Jimmy, Sorry I missed the sea trial but how are these running temps being measured? Are those temps straight off the boat's guages or did you have a temp gun reading off the engine? It is not uncommon to have inaccurate readings from old guages. Did you smell coolant from the hotter engine? Any alarms sound?

 

[Genesis]

Mechanical temp gauge or on the bridge? Electrical gauges are notorious, and not in a good way.

210 should have been ringing the alarm all day long if it was REALLY 210F. If it wasn't something's not right. Stock overheat alarms go off at 195F, and should NEVER be changed to higher on a Detroit. They like to crack heads when overheated and that gets expensive.

Notes up above (coolant level and any presence of oil residue in the tank) are solid and should be checked. Knowing what the REAL temp you're at is critical.

With disuse possible causes of overheating are many, and most are simple - bad impeller, partial blockage of the raw water system, dirty H/E - all easy to fix.

The way you're going at this sounds reasonable - "fix it and then we'll proceed"; the "proceed" part has to check and make sure no damage has been done to the engine from actual overheating, but first thing is to make sure you're really seeing the temps you think you were, and understanding why the high-temp alarm wasn't ringing off the hook.

 

[JimmyB]

The temps were similar at both sets of gauges and on a $50 temp gun. Billy was brave and went into the engine compartment to measure, while I held the hatch.

The alarm for the Stbd never went off. It probably does not work because there was no alarm when the key was turned on.

There was no smell, steam or any other indication of it being that hot. When we slowed down it ran fine and cooled off slightly. We did not do any coolant tests or check for residue. I went on the trial under the impression the owner and broker had the boat prepped to run.

What temp would this engine start to hurt itself? Is that a "who knows" scenario.

I would hope if any damage was done an engine survey would show that.

What do yall think?

 

[Pascal]

not a deal killer at this point but definitely a "fix and prove with sea trial" before spending any $ on survey. this is why a pre survey sea trial is so important.

215 is high but since that was at WOT i would think the odds of damage are pretty low since chances are the boat was almost never run at WOT and at that temp.

if she's a sitter, then old fuel, bad impeller (took a set), dirty HE are the prime suspect.

where is the boat? if a diver cleaned the bottom a month ago and the boat is down south, that may be enough growth to loose 100rpm

 

[JimmyB]

It is at The Wharf in Gulf Shores. We all agreed that the bottom needs to be looked at. If all goes well I may do a bottom job before bringing it home. The other option is to wait for Seabrook in New Orleans. Byron speaks highly of them.

 

[Pascal]

a month in warm water is enough to get a few barnacles on the props and cost 100rpm.

both RPM and temp need to be corrected by seller before another ST and then go to survey.

 

[Genesis]

Sitting a month around here, especially if the paint is not fresh or the running gear not attended to can result in AMAZING growth on the wheels - and that will definitely hose performance.

215 is too hot. "Never exceed" for a Detroit is 195F. You probably didn't hurt it with a short excursion but if you did, it'll show up fast - those sorts of problems don't take time to appear.

I suspect you're ok thus far but the overheating has to be fixed by the seller before you go further. Non-functional alarms are also a big deal to me (they will keep me from leaving port on my boats!) but I'd probably negotiate a price on that and do it myself rather than trust them to do it right. If the overheat alarm doesn't work the open question is whether some of the others don't too - like the fire bell - and that's bad news.

I agree with the other comments in that the overheating is probably easily fixed but it's on the seller to fix it before you go to the trouble (and expense) of survey and all. Have 'em show you a properly-running boat, then call in the surveyors.

 

[rsmith]

gota start with a clean bottom first. If the tstats keep the temps steady until you get to a certain power it means you have run out of the control range of the tstat. at that point you have maxed out the heat transfer ability of the exchanger. Could be scaled up. The fact that you only got 2200 is most likely dirty bottom or the boat is overwheeled. WOT should be 2350 and no load 2450. Usualy when you run out rpm these DDA's start turning fuel into smoke and heat. Since you don't have smoking issues my bet is on a dirty bottom.But then again I'm just a fire hydrant around here.

 

[REBrueckner]

A reasonable "trick" before doing any sea trial is to just stick a hand down underwater and feel the hull for growth....I usually reach over a stern with a swim platform and feel down underneath the bottom...if there are barnacles/mussels growth there, I would not even go out because of the risk of raw water intakes being partially clogged....knowing the boat was sitting and likely not painted for a year or two might mean the apparent overheating is just dirty intakes....


This boat might be just fine, but it sounds likea typical situation where a boat is for sale and even if it was previously taken of of, which is not usually the case, many owners just don't care anymore when it's up for sale...

use the problems and hassles to negotiate on price....this is a market for you, not the seller.

 

[rsmith]

as far as I know Hatt did not put ti's in the 45 till 73-74 the 46 came out mid year in 74 with the ti's in it. Where the engines replaced?upgraded? are the trans alison m gear 1.5/1 or the 1.91/1.
Trans problems and turbo brackets were issues with the early ti boats.
Before the Hatt factory boats were called "Hatterascal"s they were "Laurie" from what I've been told the first ti 45 was a laurie in '73 which had a turbo fire and burnt. Supposedly due to bracket failure. I was on a 46 that this happend to. Hot exhaust oil soaked turbo blanket = bad news.
Guess where the co2 pull was? In the salon by the stairs. Guess where we were? in the cockpit. Cross over a burning engine room to pull the co2?Nice

 

[JimmyB]

The broker running the sea trial was a mechanic at the yard the boat was sold at and knew it's history thru 3 owners. He never mentioned a re-power or the addition of turbos. According to him it was used as a cruiser, then a mother ship of sorts in Chandeleur sound and islands and lastly for cruising. The longest trip by the last owner was to Apalachicola Florida.

Jimmy

 

[bigbill]

another member of the forum has an older 45c that has 8v71ti's. i think 8v71n's were standard engines, and the ti's were an option. bigbill

 

[saltshaker]

I've also seen older 45's with 8V71TI's. Doubt anyone would turn a natural into a turbo. I looked into this for my boat and the cost would have been more than buying a new engine.

 

[Mambeaux]

Jimmy buy the boat! How much is a condo on Lake Pontchartrain??

 

[jim rosenthal]

Redecorating a condo costs somewhat less than repowering a Hatteras, especially when you are talking about redoing engines which aren't made anymore. It's more or less a buyers' market. I think going slow, as he's doing, is a good idea. Might as well get the best boat for his money, and it may or may not be this one. Jury's still out IMHO. Mind you, I hope this boat works out well, sounds like he wants to go boating.

 

[rsmith]

I've also seen older 45's with 8V71TI's. Doubt anyone would turn a natural into a turbo. I looked into this for my boat and the cost would have been more than buying a new engine.

I know the heads and pistons are different on my 12n's vs ti's. trunk head vs xhead. So it makes the conversion not pratical. The guy I worked for had a '65 41' and traded it on the first 45 with Ti's that was delivered to Cape Island marina in Cape may nj. That was in '74. The performance difference was so dramatic that the guys with the n's made a deal with Johnson and Towers in Wildwood nj to trade the n engines in on ti's. At the time the clam draggers used the 8/n's so the trade up was in the neighborhood of $1500/ engine.Yard bills? not these guys the back bulkhead got cut out with a circ saw the boat was backed up to a bulkhead at hi tide and local guy with a towtruck with a boom would pull the old engines out and stick the new ones in. everybody on the dock would help. Atleast 4or 5 guys would have to sit on the front of the tow truck to keep the front wheels on the ground. It was something to see.I know of at least 4 boats that were done this way in Cape May alone.