32 volt Inverter

[Dustoff44]

I am interested in the Outback power systems VFX32332M. I know several forum members have recommended this unit. Is the charger section a "Smart" charger or is it a ferro-resonance ? What other parts are useful like auto switching etc.. 1971 58YF mostly original 32 volt.

 

[MikeP]

BUY the Outback and the Mate. Don't even hesitate. This is an absolutely superb unit. You need the Mate to be able to do the programming to take full advantage of the inverter. It is a smart...I mean REALLY smart...charger. HOWEVER, it does not have separate charging outputs for two separate battery banks. But I am not aware of any inverter/charger that has that capability.

I know I sound like an ad but this inverter is so good and so perfectly matches the Hatt's 32v system that it's almost like it was made specifically for it.

The 3232 was the BEST item I have purchased for out boat in the 5 years we have owned it. Yes, better than GPS, Sat TV, whatever...

No, I am not associated with Outback and I was not the first person here to buy one. I also did not initially purchase the Mate but advice from Sky and other folks here convinced me to do so and I am really glad I did! You will love the 3232!

 

[REBrueckner]

"HOWEVER, it does not have separate charging outputs for two separate battery banks.."

It's best to inquire from each manufacturer what "separate outputs" means.

"separate outputs" is not an obvious issue. Modern electronic smart chargers DO have separate outputs but that needs explanation. On STATPOWER 40AMP 12 vdc smart chargers for example, from Xantrex, there are three separate outputs, designed for one per battery bank. All that means is when the charger is OFF the three terminals are not connected....so one low bank will not bring down the other two. The terminals provide common charge when the charger is on and isolation when its off.

BUT, it is ONLY the #1 terminal, on the left, (and described in the operations manual), that determines charge rate....so it's best to put your house bank on the #1 terminal, because that bank will normally be used dockside and will be lower than, say, the start banks....The higher internal resistance of fully charged start banks will limit their charge current so the arrangement works well in practice...

Aboard my Hatt 48 YF, I have three separate battry banks with two sharing different house load duties. I have three Statpower chargers, and the #1 terminal of each connects to a different battery bank....so I know all are always fully charged...and I have considerable backup redundancy....

 

[REBrueckner]

I don't think anyone makes ferroresonant chargers anymore....too expensive and with limited capability....

If it weighs a ton, its old style; if light, new smart style....Also as long as you can select between battery types (wet cell, AGM or gel) via selector swith ont he charger you'll know it's a modern smart design....each has a slightly different charge cycle (pattern)....

BE SURE TO REVIEW YOUR INVERTER REQUIREMENTS: an inverter/charger combination offers far better value than individual units....

IF YOU HAVE TIME, YOU MAY BE ABLE TO FIND REFURBISHED UNITS ON E-BAY WITH 90 DAY WARRANTY, OR SIMILAR, AT ABOUT HALF PRICE.....JUST LOOK EACH WEEK AND WAIT FOR YOUR CHOICE TO APPEAR FOR SALE....

 

[Brian Degulis]

A multi bank charger that only senses one bank for charge output is useless. The units I've had sense each bank. The capacity is total in other words a 40A charger will only put out a total of 40A for all the banks but it's got to sense each bank and charge each bank as needed.


The Outback inverter works great mine is a little over 2 years old and the fan went bad. So I called outback ready to argue that even though the unit is out of warranty they should still send me a free fan because it shouldn't have failed. Well I never got the chance they didn't even want the serial # or purchase date or anything. They said they had some bad fans go into some units when manufactured so anyone who calls with a fan failure gets a free fan no questions asked. That kind of customer service is hard to find.

Brian

 

[REBrueckner]

" The units I've had sense each bank."

I've never seen documentation that actually explains that....I could not find that at the Outback online documentation site....

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I like my Outback 3232. It works great. I do not use the charge feature or the automatic switching. I do have the Mate controller. It's nice to see what the unit is doing and to be able to change the preset levels. You won't be disappointed with it.

 

[Brian Degulis]

" The units I've had sense each bank."

I've never seen documentation that actually explains that....I could not find that at the Outback online documentation site....

The Outback doesn't because it's a single bank charger. But chargers with multiple banks usually sense each bank and respond with the needed charge for that bank. If they don't if they just sense one bank then they're worthless. If you deplete the bank not being sensed the charger will not respond so the bank goes dead?


Brian

 

[Dustoff44]

Okay I'm convinced. So, where is the best place to purchase The Outback ? i live in Houston but I do travel to FL frequently.
I know Sam's doesn't carry it....

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I bought mine from WMJ marine.

Go here for the inverter:
http://www.wmjmarine.com/vfx3232m.html

And don't forget the Mate:
http://www.wmjmarine.com/mate.html

 

[REBrueckner]

"The Outback doesn't because it's a single bank charger. But chargers with multiple banks usually sense each bank and respond with the needed charge for that bank." If they don't if they just sense one bank then they're worthless.""

That's "crazy talk". The above statement will mislead those who don't understand battery charging . I could NOT find any multi bank charger when I refitted some years ago that provide individual sensing....

If you think about it, it's likely because three outputs, for example, would have to be completely independent....in other words three chargers in one, and expensive.

In fact, a single sense output is not ideal, but it's a minor flaw....The Outback sounds like a fine charger, but a poor choice for those with multiple bank requirements....But if used with a combiner, to provide individual battery bank isolation when the charger is off, a single output charger like the Output would be fine...

By using single sense outputs to different battery banks with combiners, I have complete redundancy and perfect charging with multiple chargers....better than if I used three single output Outbacks.

I've e-mailed a friend who is a former application enginer for Xantrex...and knows all their brands to confirm my sensing post is accurate currently. I'll call Charles, not a Xantrex company I think, on Monday as it's easy to contact their engineers...and report back....

Also, does Outback provide pulse charging? Charles does and that's a nice feature...I had not known that but found it in their literature online...

 

[Brian Degulis]

Well all I can tell you is that the multi bank chargers I have used go into charge mode when any bank gets low. The old Lamarche that was standard on our Hats responds when the house bank or start bank gets low. If it were just monitoring one bank say the house bank then the charger would not respond when you crank an engine and in fact it does. I think you've got something mixed up because if it worked the way you describe it would be worthless as a battery charging system.

Now I'm not going to tell you that your crazy and I'm not going to call any manufatures or write a whole page of technical information explaining how it works because I don't know how it works. But I do know that with any multi bank charger I've ever seen if you pull a load from any bank the charger responds. If it worked the way you describe it the charger would only respond when you pulled a load from the bank that's being sensed.

Brian

 

[REBrueckner]

The design IS still the same as when I investigated....and as I suggested in my earlier posts.....Here's the offical response from an EXPERT...the applications engineer formerelly from Xantrex:

"All multi bank chargers have isolating diodes on the output of each leg.
One charger, one regulator but three outputs. The TC40 does have a
voltage sense line but we discovered that output one gets priority in the
software."

TC 40 is the Statpower (Xantrex) 40 Amp charger model I use....

IF any bank actually initiates a charge in a multi output charger, the banks are NOT isolated.....
The diodes referred to in the above quote perform exactly the same function as an external diode isolater...but the charger is designed with a higher internal voltage to offset that 1.2 volt loss to each battery bank....

What Brian has explained is what I actually do aboard my boat...but it takes me three separate chargers to accomplish it....and I acheived significant redundancy via the use of interfacing battery combiners....

 

[Brian Degulis]

Actually the banks are isolated when it's charging. The diode on the output leg prevents one battery or bank from feeding into another battery or bank. The diode allows each to recieve charge current but stops current from going the other way. So weather the charger is on or off charging or idle all banks are isolated.

Your first post talked about voltage sensing and connecting the house bank to the output that sense voltage and I'm still not seeing any logic in that. I don't really know what yopu mean by voltage sensing. It would seem that it would make no diffrence at all which bank is hooked to which output on the charger.

Your correct in thinking the Outback would work the same as a multi bank charger if used with a combiner. The problem is no ones been able to find a 32V combiner. Because the Outback uses the same terminal for charging and inverting an isolater won't work.

Brian

Brian

 

[REBrueckner]

"Actually the banks are isolated when it's charging. The diode on the output leg prevents one battery or bank from feeding into another battery or bank. The diode allows each to recieve charge current but stops current from going the other way. So weather the charger is on or off charging or idle all banks are isolated..."

What is "it" ?? The above applies to a multi output charger, not an outback single output...

"Your first post talked about voltage sensing and connecting the house bank to the output that sense voltage and I'm still not seeing any logic in that. I don't really know what yopu mean by voltage sensing. It would seem that it would make no diffrence at all which bank is hooked to which output on the charger."

The logic is that usually the house bank will be lower in charge, being in steady and frequent use, than start banks..so with a multioutput charger, it helps insure prompt and full charging. But that requires an understanding of the fact that not all the outputs are identical....not all control "sense" voltage....

Voltage sensing is the feedback that controls the charge rate...in addition to time control...all this depends on the particular software used by the manufactuer...Lots of things are different than they seem....that's why I posted the reply from an "expert"...If I recall correctly, it was he who originally advised me about the Statpower 40 output 1 sensing....he's the one who discovered it at Xantrex!!!! (I don't think it was in the Xantrex instructions)...

(We exchanged information because he tested two Statpower 40's operating in parallel for Xantrex, but never three...I had three operating together and gave him some data regarding their operation. And nobody ever tested a Freedom 25 inverter/charger operating with a STATPOWER 40 charger(s) either...I also gave him data on that. And posted much of it here previously.)

"Your correct in thinking the Outback would work the same as a multi bank charger if used with a combiner. The problem is no ones been able to find a 32V combiner. Because the Outback uses the same terminal for charging and inverting an isolater won't work...."

(This is a simple design problem....but requires somone who knows current components that will do the job...I've been away from such applications way too long...here are some ideas.)

Why not hang a big diode on the Outback positive dc...then connect a second battery bank to that diode...keep the main power bank connected directly to the terminal just like now (no diode) ...The diode will only conduct to bank #2 when the Outback is charging;when it is producing power, the Outback positive dc will likely be lower than the second battery bank voltage and hence isolate it.
This would be ideal to keep start banks fully charged for example...not so good for heavily used house banks....

OR, If several of you have this issue, e-mail YANDINA and ask them to design and perhaps build something for you....either its easy and obvious or they'll tell you otherwise....

The Outbanks have no external voltage sense lead??? That is, they do not have a separate voltage sense wire that can be directly connected to a battery terminal???

Another approach: The Xantrex PATHFINDER combiner has a rheostat (adjustable resistance) for setting "combine" and "disconnect" voltages....changing these two rheostats (to a higher resistance) could by itself enable a 24volt combiner, for example, be used for 32 volt applications....maybe adding a second rheostat of the same size/type for the 24volt..and wiring it in series....

 

[Brian Degulis]

This is giving me a head ache. For anyone following this let me simplify it.

Any multi bank charger will work on your boat. Each bank will get charged as needed and the batteries or banks will be isolated.

If you use a single bank charger with an isolater it will work but you will lose about 1V going thru the isolater.

If you use an inverter like the outback that is not muti bank the only way to charge 2 banks and keep them isolated is to wire an isolator between the banks. The problem with this is that the bank wired to the isolater will lose about 1V of charge voltage because of the isolater. A combiner would be a better answer but no one has found one for 32V use.

Brian

 

[stormchaser]

Any recommended installers in the Annapolis/Baltimore area? What's a "reasonable" cost for install?

 

[REBrueckner]

"If you use an inverter like the outback that is not muti bank the only way to charge 2 banks and keep them isolated is to wire an isolator between the banks.."

Oops, we both forget the simplist solution...a switch!!!....I have them installed as backups...just in case....

And nothing wrong about a solenoid with a manual "parallel" switch...except you have to remember to connect and disconnect from time to time.

And Brian's right about the single diode....a mediocre idea I posted above....

 

[Nonchalant1]

I got mine from WMJ also. It's a great unit. read the Mate owners manual to see how to control the total draw of the Outback for both charging and pass-through so you can operate it on a 20A or a 30A circuit. I changed my 20A charger circuit to a 30A circuit so I could max out the Outback at 29A draw. Works great.

I do have a starting bank that I can charge if necessary from the Outback via a manual parallel switch. It's usually not necessary because it gets charged every time I cruise.

Doug Shuman

 

[stormchaser]

Would there be any harm or issues in keeping the two bank paralleled into one big bank while on shore power so that both get good charges, then unparallel them before starting so you maintain the redundancy of two banks while under way or at anchor?