30A or 50A?

[Avenger]

One of my next projects is revamping the AC electrical system on my Series I 36C. Mine is a 1970 which was built before Hatteras had their electrical excrement together. I bought a main electrical panel from another member that came from a later version of the boat. It appears to be set up for 50A service. I'm also looking at the loading on the seperate A/C panel and the existing 30A is marginal for running both A/C units from shorepower.

So here's the B.O.A.T. dollar question. Did Hatteras change shorepower service for the main panel and/or the A/C from 30A to 50A in the later models?

 

[Bob Bradley]

This doesn't really answer the question, but FWIW, my '79 has twin 30A services - one for the A/C and the other for the rest of the boat.

 

[Pascal]

The most important question is what kind of service do you have at your marina and what is the lot common in transient slips your size in your area.

If 120-220/50 is available you may be better off upgrading. I know the cord is more $ and heavier but it will give you more power and most importantly a bigger safety margin. Occasionally when going to 30amp marina you can always use an adapter

If most 40' slips only have 30amp then you won't gain much by upgrading

 

[Jaxfishgyd]

My 1973 was factory wired for 50A for the A/C side and 30A for the rest of the boat... I changed my 50A outlet to 30A in 2003 and have had zero problems as I changed both A/C units at the same time.. Most marina slips for my 43' only have twin 30A service anyway

 

[Fanfare]

Fanfare, built in December of 1965, was entirely 30 amp. Three separate cords. This was marginal, as the 110v AC circuit alone drew about 32 amps when new. Worse, the 220v stove line was the exact same plug configuration as the two 110v ship service and AC lines. Fortunately the one time I plugged the 220v line into the 110v ship service receptacle there was only one light bulb on. Filament melted right through the glass! I was glad the refrigerator and the ice maker were not active. Or, I wonder what would have happened had I plugged it into the AC side? This alone was a pretty good reason to rewire. Then I found that none of my three-prong 110v outlets had any ground wires at all. They were three-prong, but only two wires inside! Very dangerous!!!

Back then many marinas had no shore power at all. Often there was only a double 110v household type receptacle, and both plugs would be on the same fuse, so 15 amps was about it. With no 220v we had an inventory of cooking items such as a toaster oven, coffee maker and an electric fry pan. In our galley there is still a prominent switch for turning off the water heater to cut down our current draw, complete with a red indicator lamp.

It may just be Fanfare's size, but most marinas today seem to have 50 amp service. I carry one of those Hubbell smart combiners to convert two 30 amp lines to one 50 amp connector. I have not had to use this in at least 15 years. When Fanfare outgrew her original electrical box I decided to rewire in a way that met our current (no pun intended) lifestyle. We now take a single 110/220v 50 amp shoreline into the boat and break this down on board. I kept the two 110v 30 amp male connectors on the toerail just in case, but now carry only one 110v cord. I keep it out of inertia and because about every third year some sailboat needs to borrow it. Having replaced a split system AC with two separate units I tried to balance our normal electric load by putting the most commonly used circuits on opposite sides of the 110v ship service and dividing the four AC loads. My boat did not have the shotgun fuses on the shore cords so I did not have to eliminate these for circuit breakers.

Our new configuration has worked well. I can stall our 12.5 k generator or trip the shore breaker if I intentionally turn on everything on board. For heavy stove use or watermaker operation I have to shed some AC load. I try to treat my electrical system as I do my engines--run them up to full power for about two minutes per voyage just to be sure they can still do it. Then run the rest of the time at reasonable levels for long life. And always feel the plugs and cord to see if they are getting hot. I also have found the expensive rebuildable Hubbell connectors seem to work best over the longer run.

 

[Blaine Thorpe]

Our 1975 36C had twin 30 amp service. One for the AC and the other for all house electrical. We also had a 50amp to 30 amp splitter if needed. On our trip from Illinois to Destin, I only had to use the splitter once.

Blaine

 

[saltshaker]

I would think the dual 30A/125V service would be fine for a 36C and don't think Hatt ever made them 50A/250V. My 46C had dual 50A/125V service. Very few marinas still have that so I usually used 2 30A/125V connections until I converted to 50A/250V. 90% of the time it was fine providing the power at the pedestal was good. Converting to 50A/250V would be fine and I doubt you'll have an issue finding slips equipped with such. Question is do you really need it? What size and draw are the ACs? I had 2 16K on the 46C and she ran fine off the 30A outlet. Is the panel you have off of a 36C and is it 50A 125V or 250V? If it is a 50A/250V panel and you already plan to redo the service, I'd rip out the old stuff and rewire the new service for 1 50/250. You'll have more than you need and the ability to have more dedicated circuits. You'll also add the option of 250V appliances.

 

[captddis]

Definately go with the 50 amp.

 

[34Hatt]

Definately go with the 50 amp.

If he has that panel already I don't think he has much choice?

How would he split it into two 30's you would most likely need to redo the back of the panel?

Pictures of that might help. But it sounds like 50 amp or start fresh to me.

 

[Pascal]

Shouldn't make a difference... Either will have 2 hots coming in whether from a single 50a cord or two 30

Only difference is that the main breakers on the panel will have to be swapped.

Of course if he is going to use any 220v appliances, the 30 amp cord would not provide guarantee that the hots are on opposing phase but for a basic 120v panel it doesn't matter

 

[jim rosenthal]

If he changes over to 50A 220 coming in, then he has the option of getting 220vac AC units later on, which will draw fewer amps. Right now, with only 110vac coming in, he can't do that. Am I right?

 

[Avenger]

Thanks everybody for the responses. Lots of good information there. I'm not really all that hot to change to 50A, but since everything is getting replaced this would be the time to make that decision.

Marina power isn't really the biggest issue for me. I'm docked at a private house, so I have some flexibility with how I set up the shorepower there. I guess when traveling I can use adapters if the marina can't supply 50A.

The A/C is only marginal if both units try to start at the same time. Otherwise the loading of a 4K and a 12K should be safely within 30A. But I remember Maynard talking about having these problems with the 30A on his Series II 36C.

Here's the existing panel:

And the "new" one:

The main breakers are 50A and the wiring looks like 6 ga. Although, the one labeled Shore Line Master seems to have 8ga. on it.

I don't really want to go to 240V unless I use 240V A/C units. But then I would require 240V power at a marina. Which may not be available in the smaller slips.

It's looking like I have 2 50A 120V services in my future. Sucks 'cause I already bought the 30A recepticles.

 

[doc g]

Derek, Go single 50 a /250 v. Buy a smart adapter and call it a day. Then you are covered for nearly every situation. I've seen too much of that 30a stuff melted and burned and 50a / 120 v is really difficult to find in a marina, at least around here. I may have some parts you can use too.....my 2 Cents fwiw.....Pat

 

[saltshaker]

You really don't want 2 50/125. You'll need 2 heavy cords and rarely will you find service for them. You can keep the boat panels set up as 2 50/125 but use a single 50/250 inlet and cord. The one cord will then supply 50/125 to each service. This way you have a common set up and the option to add any 220V stuff later on.

 

[Pascal]

You really don't want to use 2 120/50 as fewer and fewer marinas use that. It s all either 120-30 or 120/240-50

Just so we re all on the same page, 120/240-50 gives you two 50amp hot and a common neutral. The hots are always on opposing phase so you have the option to use 220v appliances like dryers, stove, grill and AC

If you got with two 120-30 you have two 30amp hots and two neutrals. The hots will not necessarily be on opposing phase and will not provide 220v. But the big drawback is that you will always run close to capacity whereas with the 120/240-50 you will be closer to 50% capacity

I have to ask if it is worth doing all that work and end up with an old panel, old analog meters, used breakers and rotary... Chances are the wires connecting all the stuff have seen better days, with aging insulation and probably un-tinned wire.

Why not do a new panel? This is pretty simple, you can probably find a compatible new panel (Blue Seas) or even have one made and start with all new stuff. The labor is the same, probably worth the extra $

I m In the process of locating the panel on my 53' from the port ER to above the companionway in the galley. I used a sheet of black lean, drilled the holes etc... I did that after taking a close look at the inside of my panel and finding dark spots on some of the wires where the insulation was getting old.

 

[34Hatt]

You really don't want to use 2 120/50 as fewer and fewer marinas use that. It s all either 120-30 or 120/240-50

Just so we re all on the same page, 120/240-50 gives you two 50amp hot and a common neutral. The hots are always on opposing phase so you have the option to use 220v appliances like dryers, stove, grill and AC

If you got with two 120-30 you have two 30amp hots and two neutrals. The hots will not necessarily be on opposing phase and will not provide 220v. But the big drawback is that you will always run close to capacity whereas with the 120/240-50 you will be closer to 50% capacity

I have to ask if it is worth doing all that work and end up with an old panel, old analog meters, used breakers and rotary... Chances are the wires connecting all the stuff have seen better days, with aging insulation and probably un-tinned wire.

Why not do a new panel? This is pretty simple, you can probably find a compatible new panel (Blue Seas) or even have one made and start with all new stuff. The labor is the same, probably worth the extra $

I m In the process of locating the panel on my 53' from the port ER to above the companionway in the galley. I used a sheet of black lean, drilled the holes etc... I did that after taking a close look at the inside of my panel and finding dark spots on some of the wires where the insulation was getting old.

I think more info is needed like I said need to see the back of it!
And a closer of the front can't read it
I was under the Impression it is 120v 50 SINGLE CORD !

So Derek what Exactly is it

 

[34Hatt]

Okay zoom in it seems like a 50 amp 120 volt
So not easy to switch to twin 30 amp alittle more than just switching main breakers

 

[saltshaker]

Okay zoom in it seems like a 50 amp 120 volt
So not easy to switch to twin 30 amp alittle more than just switching main breakers

We're only seeing the ships service panel. I believe he has a separate 30/125 panel for the AC. So he can keep the 2 120V panels and up the inlet and cord to a single 50/250, 2 50/125 or keep the 2 30/125 inlets and cords.

 

[Avenger]

Here's the back:

It's possible that this was a 30A and the main breakers were changed.

For those not familiar, the boat is currently set up with 2 30A services. One goes to the ship's panel and the other goes to a separate panel for the Air Conditioning option.

BTW, if you split 50A 250V don't you end up with 2 25A legs?

 

[Avenger]

Also, the intention is to rewire the panel and use the good parts from the old and "new" to end up with one good panel. Analog meters don't bother me. In fact, I like the "Watts Being Used" meter. It's quirky.