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New Air Force One.

  • Thread starter Thread starter capttonyf
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My father was a supply officer in the Marines during Vietnam. As a wise ass teen I questioned how he could be part of the $1,000 toilet seat scheme. Here is what he said. "We have x amount of money each year to buy rotor blades (there was a shortage) etc. At the end of the year if it is not used we loose it. Often we can not purchase what the troops need in the field because of supply shortages. What sometimes happened in order to have the ability the next fiscal year to make the purchase, the vendors would sell toilet seats, hammers whatever at $1,000 , because they had plenty, with the understanding they could be turned in for full credit once the rotor blades where available.

I'll always remember that. This was a bonafide smart thing to do for the troops. My view of my dad changed that day. Great guy!
 
I get that the Military as a whole is a jobs program, BUT how many people are actually involved in the building of a plane, a few hundred? Even for a few thousand seems like a lot of expense. Hell you couls divide that $4 Billion up amongst 4 million people and it would go much further then a salary. How do I get I on that Stimulas Plan?

Tony

It's tens of thousands. Boeing doesn't make airplanes it designs and assembles them. Most of the parts are made by subcontractors. Now think of how many million parts are in a 747. Even if you don't count each rivet there are still hundreds of machine shops, raw material suppliers and other vendors who supply the pieces. The ripple effect is much bigger than you can imagine.
 
The ripple effect is much bigger than you can imagine.

And over the last 30 years, much of that ripple effect has gone overseas!
 
Certainly true for products like the 787. It may be less so for the 747 since those supply chains were established in the '60s/'70s and the production volume is so low now that it would be hard to justify moving it overseas.
 
Nobody in government even cared or ask how much AF1 cost until it was presented to Trump, he knew we were getting ripped. Actually I think our President and congress should be in their office working full time and do a hell of lot less flying around on our nickel. Obama has set a record wasting our money on unnecessary traveling. AF1 has always been for show and hardly necessary.
 
Regardless of party none of them care about what it costs because they don't have to earn it. No politician ever thinks about making a dollar, all they ever think of all day long is how to spend money.

Most people think of gov't as an altruistic and benign incompetent but it's not. The system is designed to waste money. Trust me, I work the the gov't all the time. That is the painful reality.
 
You guys ever hear of the 1,000 dollar toilet seat for the government? It's true no one checks the supplier and crap like this gets hidden and someone gets their palms greased.
I don't think that was really going on. They were hiding those charges in spending bills as a means to get the money for black projects. So they would snatch a Russian sub from the bottom of the ocean off the books. No one was actually getting paid $1000 for a toilet seat or a hammer.
 
This excess and waste in the military (and every other government program I would bet) has nothing to do with waste, incompetence, kickbacks, bribes, greased palms etc. The military (with the new AirForce 1) is a jobs program; we need a new Air Force 1, not because the old one needs to be replaced. We need a new Air Force 1 to keep Boeing employees employed The military budget is about half of the Federal budget, not because we need to keep ahead of our enemies, but rather to keep our citizens employed. There is just not enough real work that we can have 100% employment, so we have to "make work" and because so many of us are convinced that the military needs to be rebuilt a bloated military budget gets approved every time even by the deficit hawks. Its easy to get a new unnecessarry military program approved, but a network of high speed trains or a government paid electric grid, or solar panels for every roof, or new bridges across the country, not so muchheres some things I found on the internet that says it better than I"Why is the military’s half of the pie sacrosanct? Wasteful and unnecessary military programs get a pass from legislators because the military is also our largest and most secure jobs program, one that has penetrated into the nooks and crannies of Every Town U.S.A. If it were disbanded, the economy would be crippled by soaring unemployment, plant closures, and bankruptcies."and this from several years ago "National security is a cover for job security.This is nuts.Wouldn’t it be better to have a jobs program that created things we really need — like light-rail trains, better school facilities, public parks, water and sewer systems, and non-carbon energy sources — than things we don’t, like obsolete weapons systems?Historically some of America’s biggest jobs programs that were critical to the nation’s future have been justified by national defense, although they’ve borne almost no relation to it. The National Defense Education Act of the late 1950s trained a generation of math and science teachers. The National Defense Highway Act created millions of construction jobs turning the nation’s two-lane highways into four- and six-lane Interstates.Maybe this is the way to convince Republicans and blue-dog Democrats to spend more federal dollars putting Americans back, and working on things we genuinely need: Call it the National Defense Full Employment Act."So if Trump does succeed in re-negotiating the bill for AirForce One (and other government spending) downward.... good for him. but not so good for the economy. To keep people working he is going to have to spend the money on other programs, probably by convincing republicans that we need it for the national defense. With any luck we will get things we actually need instead of a new airplane we dont.
OK so I can understand defense employment. But they price out the plane including staffing. So how does overcharging help employment? Does Boeing pay extra guys to just stand around?
 
Yes. At the request of the unions.
 
OK so I can understand defense employment. But they price out the plane including staffing. So how does overcharging help employment? Does Boeing pay extra guys to just stand around?
There were two allegations made in this thread one was the plane over priced and the other was that we don't need it at all. I wasn't speaking so much to the over pricing. My comments went to the need. We don't need it but we buy it to support the economy. At least that's what I think. And I think it's a good thing.
 
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AF1 is just one of the endless examples of government spending that has caused 20 trillion of debt. Never has made sense that we have this notion we can forever borrow our way to a good economy. We should refurbish the two AF1's we have and save billions while supporting some jobs. Hey, those old B52's are still flying!
 
Boeing needs to say no-thanks, don't need the hassle for 2 damn planes.

I worked there when last pair were built (MRB Engineer). Touched every single 747 for about 7 years. Boeing lost many, many millions on the planes because at that time, MAC/D was still competition-they could offer there MD-11. Well, the prestiege that comes with your name on AF1 means you are willing to take a loss.

Now lets talk modern times. Our lovely government actually wanted airbus to offer a A380 proposal. The thinking was maybe a 747 just wasn't big enuf anymore. Airbus said thanks but no thanks (they are not dumb).

Boeing is 35 billion in the hole on 787. It is not possible that this program will ever be successful. They do not need another nightmare- just no money in it.

Gary
 
Just a few points of clarification. Retired 13.5 years now from boeing. I am/was no company man-I checked out at age 56- never looked back.

But Tinman and some others. At some time you "buy newer" because a whole bunch of companies will no longer provide parts for your oldie. 747 classic engines are history. You can recert to new engines, but what if this costs more than new?

Wouldn't bother me if the prez flew in an ultra-light. But many Americans just don't like the idea of obscure rock-bands flying in a 747 while POTUS hitch-hikes.

Gary
 
AF1 is just one of the endless examples of government spending that has caused 20 trillion of debt. Never has made sense that we have this notion we can forever borrow our way to a good economy. We should refurbish the two AF1's we have and save billions while supporting some jobs. Hey, those old B52's are still flying!
You may be right but then what do you do with all those unemployed and under employed people. I have no problem with debt. I borrowed for my car and my home; things that I considered to be necessities. I paid cash for my boat (not a necessity) But I understand that when it comes to national debt and how to pay it back (raise taxes) im the odd man out here. I really do believe that there is plenty of money out there. We just have to redirect our spending. Maybe instead if buying a nwe plane or two we should rebuild a few bridgesBottom line, as a society we have to decide how to deal with folks that can't find a job or can't work or just don't want to work. Only three choices as I see it. We could give them money, (welfare) or make work, or just f.. 'em; let them starve. I'm not arguing for one approach or another except that as long as you and I can afford yachts it's just wrong that kids are going to bed hungry in this country. Our priorities are messed upIf we are to take seriously the notion that every citizen is entitled (I know a dirty word here) to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" than we have to accept the notion that there are certain things that we need to provide all our citizens as their "right", I would argue,food shelter and clothing as well as health care and if we need to tax and borrow (or borrow and tax) to provide these "rights" then that's what we have to do. The money is there, we just have to rethink our priorities
 
Good idea. I'd suggest you start by selling the yacht you can afford so easily and reprioritize the money to charity to help the people you feel are entitled to it.

When you start confiscating one person's assets and making them responsible for the situations and choices of others that whole life, liberty and pursuit of happiness thing goes right out the window.

The only thing you were right about is the need to reprioritize. We need to prioritize the govt out of the business of spending money it doesn't have to fulfill promises it can't keep. That is the monster that is consuming all the prosperity that America has to offer.
 
Good idea. I'd suggest you start by selling the yacht you can afford so easily and reprioritize the money to charity to help the people you feel are entitled to it.

When you start confiscating one person's assets and making them responsible for the situations and choices of others that whole life, liberty and pursuit of happiness thing goes right out the window.

The only thing you were right about is the need to reprioritize. We need to prioritize the govt out of the business of spending money it doesn't have to fulfill promises it can't keep. That is the monster that is consuming all the prosperity that America has to offer.

Perfect reply. I was just going to say ronparise is entitled to only give whatever is his to whoever he chooses, but not entitled to give away what belongs to others. We just endured 8 years of the most irresponsible government in our history. It never ceases to amaze me how casual liberals are about other peoples money and government debt. Hopefully, we will make a right turn and "Make America Great Again."
 
My owning a "yacht" (aka old, tired, Hatteras), does not affect if kids eat or not. We already have several government programs to feed any of our citizen (and non-citizens). No kid will go hungry as long as the assistance needed is applied for. I see those that do NOT need these benefits using them every day. I see those with EBT benefit cards driving new Escalades. Many of those same people also have "cash assistance" on this same debit card. This is in addition to the food stamp benefit. They are free to spend the cash on anything including beer and cigarettes. Wake up and see what's going on here. There are NO starving children in this country. It is the picture that always gets painted when liberals want to tax you more. Who can say no to a puppy dog or a child?
 
There are some kids that are hungry. Because mom is hung over and won't make them breakfast.

I agree the programs are there and being abused by many. Our society allows you to lie about need to make it on the roles so they can ask for more money.


When my son changed schools they wanted to clarify him as English as a second language for more aid money. The wanted to see if we qualified for food assistance and any other government money. They probably spent more on getting people not in need to apply than they get in aid.
 
my underlying premise is that technology is making lot of jobs un necessary, so telling someone to "get up off your lazy ass and get a job" won't work. But like your's my attitude is "I don't care" I'm 70 years old and I have enough to survive another 20 or so so really, "f...'em"All I'm trying to do here is offer a possible explanation for why we, through our government, might buy things we don't need. Incompetence by those government buyers, and/ or corporate greed explain why we might pay too much but not why are we doing this in the first place.So will it work? Will government make work projects get us to full employment? I doubt it. But it will be interesting to see if our new president can make good on his promise to rebuild our infrastructure whether we need it or not
 
damn, the Falcons are looking good. My seahawks gone, so I am pulling for Atl to win SB. They don't have one yet.

Gary
 

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