Welding cable vs ABYC cable..... made any difference in this case ? (photos)

[Milacron]

(boatsb is going to love this... )

Recently my port 12v71TA starter would not start. Below is why. Cable is 4/0 welding wire with the usual black SO type rubber jacket but also encased in heavy PVC like flexible conduit (the red cover you see)




Notice there are no cracks or corrosion outside the connector (which connects to the + starter solenoid stud) and notice it is sealed with sealant of some sort. The connector faced up, wire went down....so even if there was some salt spray from a small cooling system leak nearby I don't see how the water could have entered the crimp fitting.

So, after 22 years....how did this happen ? I have two theories....

1. Perhaps years ago the connector was not sealed so well, a cooling leak developed that got into the wire. Someone came along, cleaned up the mess, repainted the starter and surrounds and sealed the connector. But the salt water was already in the copper, gradually doing what you see.

2. Vibration. That red cover is quite heavy and stiff... I can see the possibility of vibration fatiquing a few strands, internal sparking going on...which makes matters even worse breaking more strands, rinse and repeat for 22 years.

Curiously, the starboard engine cable is fine...showing near zero ohm resistance. But I should probably go ahead and replace it's cable as well.

Would ABYC cable avoided this ?

 

[GJH]

Tinned Boat Cable maybe. Can't tell from the pic, but any evidence it was soldered? That was my first suspicion..

 

[captddis]

I saw that once when a solonoid failed and the engine started on its own. The starter ran until it stopped by the 4/0 melting the end off . The 8v92 ran for 6 hours until the owner came home .

 

[captddis]

Another thought is if the wire was pulled tight and was flexed every time the panel was opened or closed that over time could take its toll.

 

[Milacron]

I saw that once when a solonoid failed and the engine started on its own. The starter ran until it stopped by the 4/0 melting the end off . The 8v92 ran for 6 hours until the owner came home .

Impossible in this case as no current goes thru that wire until someone first turns the "engine on" breaker and then presses a momentary "engine start" button or toggle

(I say button or toggle as there are three different stations to control the engines...inside helm, flybridge and engine room...engine room has it own circuit breakers for "engine on" and a large button for "engine start"...other two stations have circuit breakers on main breaker panel and toggles)

What happened here is I did a weekly routine engine start at the dock just to keep the engine insides coated with oil and make sure nothing has deterioated over time. The port engine went from starting the instant the start button is pressed to doing nothing at all. If I checked voltage when engine start button was pressed the meter would read .001 volts. If I then disconnected the positive wire, pressed engine start, Fluke meter read 27 volts !

There was never any smoke, or heat or smells....apparently the last time I ran the port engine, enough strands of cable broke in the starter solenoid connector crimp such that the next time the current no longer flowed. A few strands still connected however...enough to show 27 volts with cable disconnected, but not enough for any amperage to flow with the cable connected.

So I check resistance between connector and cable and get 1/2 Mega Ohm resistance...not good. I try and bend the connector a tad to see if that makes any difference in the reading, and the damn thing breaks off in my hand to reveal the ugly sight I now display to you guys.



One of the engine room panels

 

[Milacron]

Another thought is if the wire was pulled tight and was flexed every time the panel was opened or closed that over time could take its toll.

No, doesn't work that way here....even if the battery bank panel is opened the only cables that move a bit are the ones that connect the battery selector switches to the "Big Boy" starter relays. (not to be confused with the starter solenoid on the starter this cable was connected to)

The positive cables to the starter solenoids can not move at all when this panel is opened (a rare occurrance as it never needs to be opened except for troubleshooting) as they are secured in numerous places.
The only place the cable "roams free" is under the engine and even there it is encased in that semi flexable red conduit I mentioned.

 

[Milacron]

New cable in today, port engine starting like a charm again...thank goodness no starter troubles.

 

[kelpy]

Welding cable is called that for a reason. It really has no business on a boat. it doesn't take much to begin corrosion on those fine wires. That cable should be replaced with proper tinned battery cable of the appropriate gauge.

 

[Boatsb]

And use hex crimp tools and crimps. Cover with glue lined shrink tubing to do it right.

Fwiw the hex crim tool works great and only cost about $350.

The connectors for it are almost idiot proof.

 

[Milacron]

Welding cable is called that for a reason. It really has no business on a boat. it doesn't take much to begin corrosion on those fine wires. That cable should be replaced with proper tinned battery cable of the appropriate gauge.

I did use battery cable for the replacement. Crimping was done by the commercial electrical shop. Then I used heavy shrink tubing with sealant inside for the final touch.

 

[MikeP]

This kind of stuff is what makes used boats so "interesting" - "creative" work done by previous owners.
I can understand almost any such "substitution" for an emergency - you are out cruising and a cable failed and you happen to have some welding cable on board (No, I don't have any idea why you'd have welding cable on board unless you also carry the welding equipment)). You rig up the substitute as needed to do the job. When you get back you pull out the temp repair and replace with the correct material/part. Heck temp repairs are why Duck Tape and JB Weld Exist!

(Though I know of one Mopar 727 automatic transmission case that was repaired with JB Weld over 20 years ago that is still doing just fine!)

 

[captddis]

This kind of stuff is what makes used boats so "interesting" - "creative" work done by previous owners.
I can understand almost any such "substitution" for an emergency - you are out cruising and a cable failed and you happen to have some welding cable on board (No, I don't have any idea why you'd have welding cable on board unless you also carry the welding equipment)). You rig up the substitute as needed to do the job. When you get back you pull out the temp repair and replace with the correct material/part. Heck temp repairs are why Duck Tape and JB Weld Exist!

(Though I know of one Mopar 727 automatic transmission case that was repaired with JB Weld over 20 years ago that is still doing just fine!)

So you replaced all the factory installed welding wire cables in your 53?

 

[Milacron]

So you replaced all the factory installed welding wire cables in your 53?

FWIW, in my previous post I tried to edit in (something about my iPad won't allow editing here) the fact that the only reason I used battery cable to replace my corroded positive starter cable was that is all the distributor had that was flexible in that size. If all they had was welding cable I would have happily used that instead. All of the 22 year old 4/0 welding cable in the Viking is almost certainly original equipment and suspect all except the one crimped fitting that must have got soaked in salt water at some point is in perfectly fine condition according to the ohm meter anyway.

 

[MikeP]

So you replaced all the factory installed welding wire cables in your 53?

Our 1980 53MY has tinned battery cables; I assumed (apparently incorrectly based on your comment) that tinned cables were OEM from Hatt - at least by 1980 but that IS just an assumption on my part.

However, everything that was done to the boat by the PO is logged and there is no mention of such a change. Since there are things logged like adding a door on a cabinet, or adding a light fixture in various storage areas, It's hard for me to believe he would have changed all the battery-related cables without logging it. But I suppose it's possible.

In any case, I'm pleased that there is no welding cable in our 53 since it's not the best material for the application.

 

[Boatsb]

FWIW, in my previous post I tried to edit in (something about my iPad won't allow editing here) the fact that the only reason I used battery cable to replace my corroded positive starter cable was that is all the distributor had that was flexible in that size. If all they had was welding cable I would have happily used that instead. All of the 22 year old 4/0 welding cable in the Viking is almost certainly original equipment and suspect all except the one crimped fitting that must have got soaked in salt water at some point is in perfectly fine condition according to the ohm meter anyway.

Keep the faith.

 

[tonytrakovich]

Here is an interesting article on different types of wire. Maybe what you guys are describing as welding cable is actually untinned marine cable. Look for the wire type printed on the insulation jacket do the wire. You can then look up the type of wire that it actually is.

http://custombatterycables.com/info_pages/wire_types.htm

In my experience the longevity of the termination of the wire has a lot to do with the connector and crimp. Battery cable has thin wires for flexibility that are easily damaged. Also wire exposed to salt air or excessive heat will oxidize, become brittle and break. All of these conditions effectively reducing the diameter of the cable. Potentially causing more heat.

My $0.02

 

[Milacron]

Here is an interesting article on different types of wire. Maybe what you guys are describing as welding cable is actually untinned marine cable. Look for the wire type printed on the insulation jacket do the wire. You can then look up the type of wire that it actually is.

http://custombatterycables.com/info_pages/wire_types.htm

In my experience the longevity of the termination of the wire has a lot to do with the connector and crimp. Battery cable has thin wires for flexibility that are easily damaged. Also wire exposed to salt air or excessive heat will oxidize, become brittle and break. All of these conditions effectively reducing the diameter of the cable. Potentially causing more heat.

My engine start related cables are labeled "welding cable" on the SO jacket. The positive cables, near the point of exit from the battery controller box, reside inside yet another much tougher PVC like red hose. The negative cables are as is with no further protection.

The battery cable I bought on Friday has thicker wires than the welding cable. The welding cables are comprised of very thin wires twisted into individual "braids" of perhaps 1/8" diameter, with these then further twisted into a large rope like structure of copper. But the individual wire diameter of the equivalent battery cable was larger than that of the welding cable.

 

[Milacron]

Keep the faith.

You turning hippie on us ? OK, my turn.. "What it is bro..."

 

[Boatsb]

You turning hippie on us ? OK, my turn.. "What it is bro..."

1 failed for no apparent reason. How would you determine if the rest are not deteriorating.

 

[Milacron]

1 failed for no apparent reason. How would you determine if the rest are not deteriorating.

Fluke Ohmeter showing .001 to .000 ohm resistance between connectors at each end of cables. (includes the generator cables, btw)

As this could change over time, now that I have the cables labeled and know which end goes where, it will be easy to test them every few months. I really think the only one to be concerned about is the equivalent positive cable solenoid terminal on the starboard engine.