Water In Diesel

[Jackman]

I just recently had issues with water in diesel. I remedied the issue yesterday but it got me wondering...To maintain a specific rpm and speed with water in your diesel does consumption increase overall or does it not matter? I'm talking about going on a canyon trip par se and having water in your fuel will it effect the efficiency to the point that you need to worry about watching the tank level? I figured if there is water in your tank your fuel consumption will increase because the water is not combustible....Any thoughts?

I know...too much water and they won't run at all....

 

[Genesis]

Any water that actually gets through your filter system and into the engine will instantly hose you.

The reason is that the injector tips are EXTREMELY HOT. When the water gets to them it will flash-boil and cause a steam explosion, which blows the tip of the injector off.

The result of this on older engines is really nasty running and the need to immediately replace the injector (if you're lucky the pieces of the tip don't get anywhere they shouldn't on the way out, pass out the exhaust valves and don't grenade your turbocharger - if unlucky, well....)

On new common-rail engines the result is an instantaneous meltdown because as soon as the tip blows off the rail, which is running at several thousand pounds of pressure (or more - 10kpsi+ is not uncommon in newer common-rail engines) is "wide open" to that hole.

This causes an instantaneous washdown/meltdown of the affected cylinder and destroys it almost instantly. There is no chance you will be able to shut down quickly enough to avoid it.

I have seen the results of this when the heads have come off and its quite impressive.

If you have water in your fuel you better hope your filter system works properly.

 

[Jackman]

I have Tony Athens filter setup for each engine. There was water in them when I inspected them....unfortunately the stbd engine shut down on me last weekend and I limped home on one engine. Didn't try to start it. When I got to working on it found that there was water in all three filters of that engine. I replaced the three filters, primed the engine and she started right up. I took the boat out for a spin and everything seemed to be okay. What are signs that I had happen what you describe? Hopefully I did not get to that point. I even inspected the filters prior to the trip and everything was okay.

 

[Angela]

Karl, there you go scaring me again! But, ignorance is not bliss, though it does help me sleep better. I appreciate the lessons I learn here from everyone.

Now I want to see how much, if any, water is in the bottom of my tanks. Just what Ed wanted, another item on his to-do list before we leave for CDR. I've never seen any water in my Racors - those are supposed to separate water, aren't they? Ed is changing over our secondaries to spin-ons this week. Does water collect in there?

 

[neosin]

Very bad... Water doesn't compress and when it enters a engine the compression ratio goes up to huge numbers and normally head gaskets can't handle it and pop goes the head in most cases. "most cases"

In our race cars you can do a form of water injection to increase horsepower but we are talking such a small amount in mist form going down the intake NOT THE INJECTORS!

On diesels, you can blow the whole head, gaskets, injectors are the common failure point. You can also throw a rod VERY easily, bend rods in mild cases.

These diesels are already very high compression by nature of diesel, if you add water in to a diesel not designed for water injection many bad things can happen. In mild cases you can bend a rod and NOT KNOW IT! Such was the case with me. I never knew anything happened. Mine was from old risers that had a leak back into the engine and never new it was taking place. By the time i noticed the white steam (mind you in 90 degree weather) it did the damage already. Shutdown the engine. When it was restarted for the tech nothing happened, the rod already as sitting outside the engine.

If you have water in your fuel, GET YOUR FUEL POLISHED! Then KEEP YOUR TANKS FULL!!! That's really the only way to fix the problem.

Your filters will only stop VERY SMALL amounts of condensation over time, not a gallon all at once... Even if they advertise they do DO NOT trust it. Get the water out! Or you could be on a new thread asking "Repower for xxxx" Loads of fun replacing an engine! Trust me Don't do it. unless you just want to throw away 30k... Blow a rod and your replacing an engine. End of story. lol

 

[Jackman]

Yeah....I'm getting nervous too....but I am just curious about something...what are the chances that I simply starved the engines of fuel because its probably more difficult to pull water through those filters than it is fuel...I'm guessing because the water is heavier. When I removed the filters from the engine that shut down there was a pretty good vacuum on the lines, which to me means one of two things...either the filters were grossly clogged or the fuel pump could not pull the fuel/water mixture through the filters and caused the engines to shut down. According to Tony Athens when the fuel system reaches a certain vacuum level the engines won't function at all. What are the chances that I simply had this occur. The engines seem to run fine and I definitely don't have a rod sitting where it shouldn't be!

 

[neosin]

Yeah....I'm getting nervous too....but I am just curious about something...what are the chances that I simply starved the engines of fuel because its probably more difficult to pull water through those filters than it is fuel...I'm guessing because the water is heavier. When I removed the filters from the engine that shut down there was a pretty good vacuum on the lines, which to me means one of two things...either the filters were grossly clogged or the fuel pump could not pull the fuel/water mixture through the filters and caused the engines to shut down. According to Tony Athens when the fuel system reaches a certain vacuum level the engines won't function at all. What are the chances that I simply had this occur. The engines seem to run fine and I definitely don't have a rod sitting where it shouldn't be!

If that's the case, if it was my boat and i found water, a fuel polisher would be on the way to do a complete job. Water in the tanks is just something you have to watch for. If i notice water in my racors I call the fuel polisher. I think it should be a rule. lol This is just good maintenance for your yacht. If what you think happened, your very lucky and i wouldn't push it. You know you have water and it needs to come out.

Now the catch 22 is, You need to keep your fuel tanks full to stop any type of water build up. But you don't want the fuel to sit. If you use your boat enough you won't have a problem. But if it's a dock queen you'll have to get your fuel polished and some type of additive to keep the fuel good.

 

[yachtsmanbill]

I'm not even going to re-iterate the "how to" on this one. You need to pump the accumulated water out of the tanks! I bet as soon as one other person here does it there will be a rash of folks wanting to do the same! ws

 

[Brian Degulis]

Yeah....I'm getting nervous too....but I am just curious about something...what are the chances that I simply starved the engines of fuel because its probably more difficult to pull water through those filters than it is fuel...I'm guessing because the water is heavier. When I removed the filters from the engine that shut down there was a pretty good vacuum on the lines, which to me means one of two things...either the filters were grossly clogged or the fuel pump could not pull the fuel/water mixture through the filters and caused the engines to shut down. According to Tony Athens when the fuel system reaches a certain vacuum level the engines won't function at all. What are the chances that I simply had this occur. The engines seem to run fine and I definitely don't have a rod sitting where it shouldn't be!

That's probably exactly what happened and your getting worked up over nothing If you blew of a tip you would know it. The impotant thing now is to get rid of any water that may be in the tank. If you can remove a fitting or plug from the top of the tank then with a dip tube go to the lowerst point in the tank and draw out some fuel into a glass jug. Let it sit a little while and check for water that should give you an idea of how severe your problem is. If you see water continue pumping thru the tube untill you get clean fuel. Then polish or treat it.

Good Luck
Brian

 

[Jackman]

I just don't understand one thing...I just went through a repower from gas to diesel. I drained the tank totally dry before the guys at the yard supposedly cleaned and flushed out the tank. Never had a problem the first two to three fillups...Now this. I couldn't see any signs of water after I opened up the tank by way of the float. I only had about 40 gallons in the 265gal tank. If there was water in there from the last fillup wouldn't you think I would have either stopped in my tracks within minutes of startingup after the fillup? I went 85miles straight on this fillup and lost the engine 20miles into the trip home. (Round trip about 170miles).

 

[krush]

I take a gallon of water and dump it strait down the carburetors of engines to clean carbon. You will not hydro lock if mist gets in an engine.

Gen, do you have any picture of what injectors look like after the tip blows off? Isn't the fuel under high pressure in the inejction housing? High pressure raises the boiling point of water.

 

[first big boat]

What does it cost (ballpark) to have say 500 gallons split between 3 tanks polished? You could say 100 or 1000 and I would have no idea which to believe

 

[neosin]

I take a gallon of water and dump it strait down the carburetors of engines to clean carbon. You will not hydro lock if mist gets in an engine.

Gen, do you have any picture of what injectors look like after the tip blows off? Isn't the fuel under high pressure in the inejction housing? High pressure raises the boiling point of water.

That's kinda like using water to clean oil... lol Plus you better have your sparkplugs out or it will hydro lock. Plus putting water into a gas engine is just asking for uneven wear on the pistons... When we break down our race engines down we use a solution that is mostly heavy diesel to pre-cleaning with; then different filtered cleaners to get any fine particles off parts. But we rebuild engines like most change oil...

 

[krush]

That's kinda like using water to clean oil... lol Plus you better have your sparkplugs out or it will hydro lock. Plus putting water into a gas engine is just asking for uneven wear on the pistons... When we break down our race engines down we use a solution that is mostly heavy diesel to pre-cleaning with; then different filtered cleaners to get any fine particles off parts. But we rebuild engines like most change oil...

I wasn't clear. I dump water down the carb when the engine is running. The water injection reacts with the carbon deposits. Water injection is very common on turbo charged engines...and it keeps stuff clean!

 

[surfdancer45]

Jackman: Maybe you just got a bad load of fuel and your seperators are doing their job in getting the water out. I had some poor fuel last year and it took several trips for my filters to get the water out. On a offshore trip of 60 to 70 miles one way you are probably circulating most ol your (usable) fuel through the filters so your are in effect polishing your fuel. If you keep getting water in the filters then you may have to get it out of the tanks. There is fuel polishing and then there fuel polishing, if they cannot get to the bottom of your tanks and around baffles you may still have some residual water. Try another trip with fresh filters and see if the problem is clearing itself. Bob

 

[Brian Degulis]

I just don't understand one thing...I just went through a repower from gas to diesel. I drained the tank totally dry before the guys at the yard supposedly cleaned and flushed out the tank. Never had a problem the first two to three fillups...Now this. I couldn't see any signs of water after I opened up the tank by way of the float. I only had about 40 gallons in the 265gal tank. If there was water in there from the last fillup wouldn't you think I would have either stopped in my tracks within minutes of startingup after the fillup? I went 85miles straight on this fillup and lost the engine 20miles into the trip home. (Round trip about 170miles).

Any water will be at the bottom under the fuel so your not going to see it. As a previous poster said you probably got a bad load of fuel. The amount of running time you get is any ones guess it depends on how much water how much your rolling around and what kind of filter capacity you have. If you just had the tanks cleaned I would suck off the bottom get rid of any water and then using a fuel aditive that disperses water or a small amount of de natured alcohol. Then watch the filters very closely hopefully you have Racors so you can see what's in the bowls.

Brian

 

[Genesis]

If you blew a tip off you'd know it.

If you have Tony's system the reason you don't have a dead engine is because those filters are REAL GOOD at blocking the water from getting through them. When they load up sufficiently they simply block the flow of fuel through them and the engine quits.

That beats the alternative....

By the way, the RACORs have a ball in the bottom that floats in water and not in fuel - it doesn't always seal and when it doesn't, you're screwed. This (among other reasons) is why I don't like RACORs.

You can also get a screw-in fitting for Tony's system (as well as RACOR's) that will (with an appropriate panel) give you a horn and light when water is detected in the filters long before it can get through. Common-rail engine makers DEMAND you have these on board or they won't honor the warranty due to the extreme amount of damage that occurs to them when water gets into the fuel system. They're a good idea if you have problems like this - your local cruising grounds do, so I'd spend on that. Its cheap and will warn you before TSHTF.

Krush, the fuel is under very high pressure in the injector only during the actual injection stroke. The rest of the time it is not and if there is water in there you're hosed. In addition water has shit for lubrication qualities and will score the hell out of the plunger in the injector (not that it matters once the tip blows off!)

DO NOT use water "dispersants" in diesels. They're ok for gas engines with small amounts of water but NEVER NEVER NEVER in a diesel. That crap should NEVER go into a diesel boat's fuel tank. Trying to "run through" water in a diesel like this is a great way to score the injector plungers due to lack of lubricity and end up buying a set of injectors. Don't do it!

Pull the pickups, stick a tube down there to the bottom and suck the crap out of the tank. Solve the problem, don't do mickey-mouse crap.

Odds are that you got a bad load of fuel but check the O-rings on the fuel fill caps. If there is ANY sign of deterioration change them.

 

[neosin]

I wasn't clear. I dump water down the carb when the engine is running. The water injection reacts with the carbon deposits. Water injection is very common on turbo charged engines...and it keeps stuff clean!

Your right water injection is common on turbo engines, but it's not used to boost power in the way you might think. It's used to cool the turbo and charge air temp thus allowing more boost ... in effect making more power. Many of these setups have a way to dump the mist of water out before it enters the engine. The ones that do allow it to enter the engine is called a "snow" system in which it uses the water/methanol injection in FAR smaller amounts.

FYI any time you do water type injection is does no amount of cleaning. You can't clean oil with water! lol In fact it aids to the corrosion effects. This is why they use the snow system on a lot of diesels that use water injection and you must change your oil every 1500 miles when using this kind of system.

IN fact if you used water in a engine not built to use this kind of system your adding more to the engine than removing or "cleaning". When the water enters a running engine the water will add pits to the pistons if they are not the right type and can and in most cases you will get detonation. If you pull a piston you'll find pits and if in bad shape will burn a hole in the piston.

However a SNOW system can be used on any engine, gas or diesel and i've had plans to put a setup on my DDs to cool the charge in the summer months.
Doing this will basically be like running your engine as if it's 65 degrees outside when it's summer and 95 degrees outside.

Here's how you really clean your engine of EVERYTHING if you want/need to. Also works in diesels and DDs...

Pick yourself up some B-12 Chemtool, or Sea Foam. Basicly plug it into your master vacuum line and suck it up nice and slow until the whole can is gone. It's gonna smoke like a beast and you'll have to raise the RPM to keep the engine running but this cleans the engine very well. NOTE! Change your oil after doing this! On DDs use it in the fuel or add it to a fuel filter when you change it. This stuff is like magic cleaner...

http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUp.htm

http://www.berrymanproducts.com/Portals/0/HR LINEART/2610-LA.pdf
http://www.berrymanproducts.com/Default.aspx?tabid=147 (very bottom)

Both of these products can be bought at autozone, or any type of auto parts store and are worth their weight in gold. This is the only way to clean your top ring and get it compressing like it should! Using this stuff allows us to run our race engines up to around 10 more passes before a rebuild.

In your own cars do this once a year...

 

[Jackman]

After the fillup I added a shock dose of the antifungus, growth stuff(valvetec) and a bottle of the dieselkleen I heard you guys recommend previously. There are all new filters from the tank to both engines and the engines run fine. Once the fuel gets down low enough I will open up the guage/float opening and take a sample again to see if I have any water....I may even try that stuff the fuel docks use for checking for water..The sticks that turn orange when water is present.

I hope I'm okay. Some of the stuff you guys are describing when water gets in is down right petrifying to hear!

I'll hold off on the seafoam for the moment just because these engines only have hrs on them and shouldn't be that dirty...I may try it on my 1996 Mercury Sable with 176,000 miles on it. Might clean it too well and remove the sludge that's maintaining my compression.

 

[Genesis]

Be careful with SeaFoam on a Diesel. The stuff is basically naptha and has - again - zero lubricity.

GREAT STUFF in gas engines though; I have a pony tank hookup that I use with my outboards - 1 gallon of gas and a bottle of that in the pony, hook it up, run it through in the driveway at a fast idle.

Smokes like a SOB but cleans EVERYTHING out.

The TonyFilter system saved your injectors. Go give 'em a hug

Odds are you got a bad fill. It happens. If you know where it came from raise some hell - it won't do anything but make you feel good, but heh, that counts, right?