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Using Detroits as Fuel Polishers

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Passages

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Hatteras Model
63' MOTOR YACHT (1985 - 1987)
I have about 200 gallons of year old diesel remaining in my 1100 gallon tank. My plan was to closely monitor the tank and run it down another 100 gallons before adding fuel.

I noticed a bunch of soft tar balls settled in my Racor bowl and outside the filter. (No water thank goodness)
I disassembled the Racor and gave it a good cleaning and replaced the primary filter with a new 10 micron.

Two questions:
1)Is there an fuel additive that will break up or re-suspend the tar balls?

2) Am I being silly running my tank down this low?

(actually 3 questions)
3) In sunny Florida, is it better to keep the tank topped off or keep it low only adding what you need (plus safety margin)
 
Tar balls?

With only 200 gallons in the tank, get a fuel polishing outfit to come down and clean the fuel and the tank out properly. If one tank is contaminated, most likely the other(s) are too.

As for keeping the tanks full or not, I don’t think it much matters. The air/ fuel vapor present in the tank doesn’t get exchanged with the outside air unless there are vents on both sides of the boat. YMMV.
 
Last edited:
No idea about the tar balls...

200 to 100 USG out of a 1100 tank is ok as long as you are sure this is what you have. How do you know? Hopefully not a gauge but a dipstick. How was it calibrated? Was the stick supplied by the builder?

At 100 USG you may have Issues with generator pick ups.
 
If it’s been sitting all the algae should be on the bottom. I’d make sure the polisher pulls a plug or access plate off the top of the tank and uses a suction tube all the way to the bottom. I run tanks dry all the time when I need to maximize fuel range. This idea that running a tank low is bad makes no sense. The pickup tube sucks from the same place weather the tank is full or empty. If the tanks are really dirty anything below half tanks the fuel is going to be sloshing around in there anyway stirring things up.
Water in the fuel. Back when we first put on the Racors a number of us that fished the offshore canyons out of Cape May started noticing water in the sediment bowls. After checking the fill cap orings I talked to Ray Meyers at Hatteras who was “the guy”. Ray said they were finding that even with the fuel coolers on the return lines the tanks were getting pretty warm after a good run. As the fuel is used it is drawing in moist spray filled air. Since the vents in a convertible are close to the waterline it’s worse. After a run as the tanks cool down the moisture condenses in the tank and turns back into water. The only way to stop this is to fill the tanks after every run to force the air out of the tank before it condenses.
 
200 to 100 USG out of a 1100 tank is ok as long as you are sure this is what you have. How do you know? Hopefully not a gauge but a dipstick. How was it calibrated? Was the stick supplied by the builder?
.

I have a dip stick for the tank which agrees with the reading I'm getting from my Tank Tender.

If it’s been sitting all the algae should be on the bottom. I’d make sure the polisher pulls a plug or access plate off the top of the tank and uses a suction tube all the way to the bottom. I run tanks dry all the time when I need to maximize fuel range. This idea that running a tank low is bad makes no sense. The pickup tube sucks from the same place weather the tank is full or empty. If the tanks are really dirty anything below half tanks the fuel is going to be sloshing around in there anyway stirring things up.
Water in the fuel. Back when we first put on the Racors a number of us that fished the offshore canyons out of Cape May started noticing water in the sediment bowls. After checking the fill cap orings I talked to Ray Meyers at Hatteras who was “the guy”. Ray said they were finding that even with the fuel coolers on the return lines the tanks were getting pretty warm after a good run. As the fuel is used it is drawing in moist spray filled air. Since the vents in a convertible are close to the waterline it’s worse. After a run as the tanks cool down the moisture condenses in the tank and turns back into water. The only way to stop this is to fill the tanks after every run to force the air out of the tank before it condenses.

Except I have a MY that mostly runs hull speed. As stated in my OP, there was no water observed in the Racor sediment bowls, just these little gooey black balls that look like tar. They break right up if rubbed between fingers. I figure it was a heavy faction of fuel oil, hence my question regarding an additive which would dissolve or re-suspend it.
 
Even so in the marine environment especially Florida you are replacing volume of fuel used with humid air. The tar balls are most likely dead algae that was living on the fuel water interface. When you put an algaecide in the fuel like Biobor it kills the algae but then the dead floats around in the tank sticking to baffles and corners. We used to be in the boiler business we saw this same problem in large above ground tanks.
 
Normal fuel tank pick up tubes do not extend to the very bottom of the tank by design.
Gen-set pick up tubes are usually shorter.

I have made deliverys where the boat is running fine until some nice wake/waves are encountered. The fuel sloshes a bit and fresh mud filters are suddenly clogged.

The only way you are going to get the bug poo out of your tank bottoms is get a good fuel tank / fuel polish crew in there.
Get your tanks cleaned correctly and sleep well.
 
Wonder how easy it is to change filters on the fly in these babies?

https://time.com/5789295/fuel-tank-debris-boeing-737/

More fallout from the corporate climate evolution at Boeing. Beancounters proudly running the company.... "Unlike the engineers from before"..... McDonnel Douglas bought Boeing with it's own money. That was the beginning of the end. This is not over yet.

Meanwhile.... Years ago a friend was ferrying a DC-10 back from Tel Aviv where it had been at a contract shop for heavy maintenance. At some point this side of 30W #3 gets a fuel filter bypass light. (Filter clogged, fuel now running unfiltered) After consulting with Houston they shut #3 down and continued. Not a big deal on an empty three engine airplane. Not long thereafter same thing happens to #1, and not much later #2. At this point they decided to put it on the ground, somewhere in the great white north. Just for shnitz and giggles they fire up #3 again. Never know what the other two are going to do. They put it on the ground uneventfully.

Maintenance pulls the filters and finds....... Horse hair and cotton pulp. Turns out that the "technician" that had inspected the inside of the large center tank had done so navigating around on a thin mattress. (All organic materials and gluten free). This is normal. However he had accidentally left it in there. The first few hours of the flight the airplane fed all three engines out of the center tank..... This is normal and happens every day on most if not all airplanes out there. Takes too long to explain why. I've always felt less than 100% fuzzy about that. Anywho, that's how the crap got in all three filters.
 
You have it backwards: Boeing took over Mc-Donnell Douglas when Harry Stonecipher sold us out. I was a mechanic in Flight Test at the time it happened and I remember it well. MD was in deep doo doo financially, the MD11 was not doing great sales wise, they had lost a huge fighter contract on a fly off and the first C17 was far behind its schedule. The company was on the brink, but could have pulled through until Stonecipher took over, merged us with Boeing as a very junior partner and got himself a good job at Boeing for the rest of his career.
 
It’s also the maintainers that will save your bacon. We all put our lives in their hands just as we put our lives in the hands of the three and four striper with the window views. It’s all about trust.
 
RAC, do you think perhaps the fuel went bad after the planes were grounded? Hard to imagine they'd pump it all back out, but I have no idea.
 
RAC, do you think perhaps the fuel went bad after the planes were grounded? Hard to imagine they'd pump it all back out, but I have no idea.

Metal shavings and tools?
 
You have it backwards: Boeing took over Mc-Donnell Douglas when Harry Stonecipher sold us out. I was a mechanic in Flight Test at the time it happened and I remember it well. MD was in deep doo doo financially, the MD11 was not doing great sales wise, they had lost a huge fighter contract on a fly off and the first C17 was far behind its schedule. The company was on the brink, but could have pulled through until Stonecipher took over, merged us with Boeing as a very junior partner and got himself a good job at Boeing for the rest of his career.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/
 

Here's a short opinion quote: https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Boeing-buy-McDonnell-Douglas

The 1997 Boeing-McDonnell-Douglas merger was really the work of outgoing Boeing CEO Frank Shrontz. It was a $12 billion stock swap for essentially the defense business, because McDonnell’s commercial airplane business was worthless by that point. Really it was worse than worthless, because Boeing assumed all the support and liability for the old McDonnell-Douglas fleet, which became a big headache when Alaska Airlines MD-80 crashed three years later — due to an outdated rudder design that dated from the 1960s. In any case, the defense business was hardly worth $12 billion at that point.

But here’s the bizarre thing about the merger. McDonnell-Douglas was a failed company, believed to be months away from bankruptcy at the time of the merger. Its executives had committed a long string of disastrous mistakes as they squeezed the company for short term profit and refused to invest for growth. Yet for some reason after the merger, Boeing promoted these executives instead of Boeing’s own managers and essentially let them run Boeing. That’s why it was said that McDonnell-Douglas essentially took over Boeing with Boeing’s money.

The Boeing CEO after Shrontz, Phil Condit, a brilliant engineer, was just not much of a leader and kind of delegated the commercial airplane business to former McDonnell CEO Harry Stonecipher, who took a wrecking ball to it. Stonecipher wasted billions of Boeing money on financial services, leasing, internet — everything but making airplanes. In just 4–5 years Airbus dominated sales so much that there were industry whispers that Boeing was planning to exit the commercial airplane business entirely and cede a monopoly to Airbus.

Fortunately, Boeing’s Puget Sound leadership led by Alan Mulally (who went on to become Ford Motor CEO) managed to get Stonecipher’s grudging approval for a plan to develop an all-composite plane, the 787, a plane that eventually reasserted Boeing’s technological leadership in this industry.

Stonecipher and Condit, who mistakenly thought there was no money to be made in manufacturing airplanes, required that much of 787 development and most of its manufacturing be outsourced, which turned out to be a disastrous mistake when the outside contractors were unable to deliver the components they had promised.

The 787 was delivered 2 1/2 years late after several billion dollars of cost overruns, largely because Boeing had to take over work that its outsourcing partners couldn’t execute.

Even today, the 787 is not as profitable as it could be for Boeing because the outsourcing arrangements meant Boeing’s outsourcing partners get paid a large share of the profits.

Anyway, looking back, this has to be considered one of the worst mergers of all time. It wasn’t just that Boeing overpaid by billions of dollars — that’s common with mergers. The bigger problem was that the merger caused Boeing to lose its engineering focus and sense of mission and become obsessed with counting money at the very time it faced technological challenges from Europe.

Different comment

I worked at the Boeing Company during this event. What I am about to share is not based on any inside knowledge, just my impressions of what went on. Boeing did not buy McDonnell Douglas the two companies merged. In fact a significant portion of the McDonnell Douglas leadership became the new Boeing Company leadership. In fact the McDonnell Douglas CEO became the Boeing Company CEO.

I recall that the basic philosophy of the company changed with this merger. We, employees, were told the company was no longer a family but now like a sports team. The primary driving mantra in management became shareholder value, because companies are in business to make money not build exquisite products. Over engineering cost money.

No, it did not feel like Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas, it felt the other way around.
 
FOD is not degraded fuel, it is foreign objects in the tank or elsewhere in the aircraft or apron, taxiways or runways. Usually it’s small hand tools left behind after the work is complete, but also includes dust, dirt and any debris from the job. This is why the military use shadow boarded tool boxes with foam cutouts for every tool and also have a list of everything brought onto the aircraft. That is also why we had weekly FOD Walks where a hundred people lined up and walked the ramp picking up pea sized bits of grit and gravel.

During my time in C17 flight test on aircraft T1 we literally wrote the book: there was no Maintenance Manual for a new aircraft. The first thing they did was take away our personal rollaways with all of our customized tools and give us the boxes the AF maintainers would use, then they assigned a tech writer and cameraman to follow and observe us as we went about doing maintenance. They were not interested much in us taking care of the special flight test instrumentation unless it involved R&R of normal components. They also observed the normal processes and procedures such as towing, fueling, operation of the doors and cargo ramp and cargo loading including adjustment of the load locks which held the air dropped pallets in place until release.

Eventually we had to use the manuals we helped write and give feedback as to the validity of the processes and tooling needed. One thing that was immediately obvious was that the bulk of the maintainers were very very narrowly trained: they knew their specific job or few tasks and that was all. They were the ultimate specialists and it wasn’t until you got up to the crew chief level that you reached the skill set that we had. Not a knock against them and I don’t see how the AF could do otherwise given the short enlistment period of many of the airmen. I don’t think you had the opportunity to attend any advanced schools unless you signed up for a long period of time.

Anyway it was an exciting job and it was a real thrill to work at Edwards Air Force Base while all the F-117, B-1, Space Shuttle and other activity was taking place. Definitely the highlight of my career.
 
Here's a short opinion quote: https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Boeing-buy-McDonnell-Douglas



Different comment

It’s funny how things looked different from Long Beach. I remember that after the merger morale went into the toilet as they brought in a new system called CPIP, continuous product improvement program, which nobody could explain or understand! I will say that except for the Flight Test department which was always a sort of elite band of brothers MDC was a terrible place to work. Full of cronyism and corruption, lots of malingering and theft, even Crips vs Bloods gang activity in Hanger 9 where they built the MD80. Luckily my duties kept me away from Long Beach most of the time: Quartzite AZ engine testing and EAFB on T1.

One story they still told was about the Douglas/McDonnell merger: pencils in St Louis, home of McDonnell had McDonnell Douglas written on them such that as you sharpened them you removed the Douglas. Of course in Long Beach it was reversed: sharpening a pencil there removed McDonnell.
 

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