Trouble with AC refrigerant in the future?

[Brian Degulis]

Ive been told by e few AC guys that the R14 refrigerant will not be permitted for use in new AC units after this year. They say units using R14 cannot be re charged with the new replacment R22. They also tell me that the R14 will get very very expensive and they will no longer be allowed to re charge a unit without proof they have fixed the leak.

I don't know if this is true it's just what I've been told. Maybe someone else knows the facts? If it is true it might be wise to stock up on R14 now?

Brian

 

[mobilemn1]

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/index.html

don't remember an R14,,,,,,,R22 has been regulated for a while

This site might be able to help with some of your questions

 

[REBrueckner]

Both my a/c system refrigerants, one 1972, one 1989, have been replaced/upgraded, most recently about two weeks ago when a new owner took over my boat....I think Ocean Air (the company name) used 134A but don't hold me to that..in any case, the owner/operator of the a/c company is well know in the Ct/NY area and upgrading refrigerants is easy and cheap. Much cheaper than trying to replenish with recovered R22 or whatever the old stuff is...

 

[krush]

Brian, r14? Are you getting confused with R22 or R12? What would you and me encounter that uses r14?

R22 is being phased out and replaced with 410a in most home units. I just took and passed the EPA test (it's not hard). R12 is a CFC and they have been banned from production for many years. R22 is a HCFC, it's next on the list. R134a and 410a is a HCF and the EPA says it is golden and safe.

Phaseout Schedule for HCFCs Including R-22

Under the terms of the Montreal Protocol, the U.S. agreed to meet certain obligations by specific dates that will affect the residential heat pump and air-conditioning industry:

January 1, 2004:
The Montreal Protocol required the U.S. to reduce its consumption by 35 percent below the baseline cap by January 1, 2004. As of January 1, 2003, EPA banned production and import of HCFC-141b, the HCFC with the highest ODP. This action allowed the United States to meet its obligations under the Montreal Protocol. EPA also issued baseline allowances for production and import of HCFC-22 and HCFC-142b. EPA allocated 100 percent of the U.S. consumption and production caps by allocating both consumption and production allowances to individual companies for HCFC-141b, HCFC-22, and HCFC-142b.

January 1, 2010:
After 2010, chemical manufacturers may still produce R-22 to service existing equipment, but not for use in new equipment. As a result, heating, ventilation and air-conditioning (HVAC) system manufacturers will only be able to use pre-existing supplies of R-22 to produce new air conditioners and heat pumps. These existing supplies would include R-22 recovered from existing equipment and recycled.

January 1, 2020:
Use of existing refrigerant, including refrigerant that has been recovered and recycled, will be allowed beyond 2020 to service existing systems, but chemical manufacturers will no longer be able to produce R-22 to service existing air conditioners and heat pumps.

From: http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/22phaseout.html

Phaseout schedule: http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

 

[Brian Degulis]

Ok I got the #s wrong. Is the R22 going to get expensive? Will it still be ok to charge a system without correcting the leak?

Brian

 

[mobilemn1]

If you can find the leak to fix you would be better off financially, the world would be better off as less CO3, The R22 will be able to be manufactored up til 2020 to give the normal wear and tear for systems that need to be replaced a chance to phase out naturally. You will still be able to capture and reuse R22 past that date to maintain existing systems. The reason the date was put so far into the future was for the systems manufactoring to have a chance to redesing and RD, plus normal attrition of the systems that require the use of R22, If you have to completely suck down a system for repairs, just better to go ahead and change and get ahead of the curve.

As far as R22 going to get expensive, It got that way right after the new rules years ago, can only imagine that it will continue to climb to some degree, as when all the supplies that are left after 2010 will be high commodities for the people who still have systems that require R22 for maintenance. No new machines will be allowed to be charged with R22 from the compressor manufactorers after that date.

 

[krush]

I don't foresee r22 getting too much more expensive in the near term. Like I pasted, they will continue to make it until 2020. Most new equipment is using r410a now, so the r22 demand will be decreasing as old equipment is retired.

Big leaks are supposed to be fixed in good faith, especially on hermetically sealed units (like ur cruiseair). The law only address leak rates of equipment that holds over 50lbs of charge---nothing you or I own hold that much. They can't leak more than 15% or 35% of their charge in 12 months, depending on the type of equipment.

The leak repair requirement doesn't apply to stuff under 50lbs. But, venting is always illegal.

 

[Brian Degulis]

Krush can I just go out and buy some R22 or do you need some certification or anything like that? AC is something I know nothing about I have a set of guages they were on our boat when we got it just need to learn how to use them.

Brian

 

[mobilemn1]

http://www.r22.org/

Brian, I know you asked Krush,,,but there is the info on purchasing. I have a universal type 1 liscense. You can take a course at many local community colleges that offer refrigeration and obtain the license. That would allow you to purchase.

 

[akintosyali]

a friend just for a 50 gal R22 tank for $250 from craigslist, still sealed.

 

[Brian Degulis]

http://www.r22.org/

Brian, I know you asked Krush,,,but there is the info on purchasing. I have a universal type 1 liscense. You can take a course at many local community colleges that offer refrigeration and obtain the license. That would allow you to purchase.

That figures for me It's not worth getting a license just to charge my stuff.

Brian

 

[mobilemn1]

The test is not that complicated if you have a good understanding of refrigeration, I had a background in industrial refrigeration as well as home type units,,,,I just took the test and passed. Not talking about a 2 or 4 yrs program. I have worked on 540ton units as well as the little window units. Ask if they are giving the CFC test loacally and just check on it....then again we all have friends who have friends who have friends.

 

[Brian Degulis]

Yeah it's just not worth it to me I've got enough licenses I'm sick of taking tests. I'll ask around and maybe I can find some that fell off the truck.

Brian

 

[krush]

For those interested in getting certified: http://www.epatest.com/

I just called up a local HVAC supplier and asked if they proctored the EPA test. It was $99.95 for the packet and that included the study materials (theroy book, audio cd, DVD, and computer CD full of questions) and the test. I studied for a couple hours, but I have strong knowledge of the theory. Some of the questions are theory, but many are just dates and regulations.

Test took me an hour.

4 section, 25 question each. Core (25), Type 1(25) small appliances, type 2(25) High pressure, type 3 (25) low pressure chillers that operate under vacuum.

You must pass the core and whatever type you want. If you pass all 4 you get universal cert. To pass each section requires 17 question correct. If you pass the core and 1 and 3 you will be issued 1 and 3, you can retake 2 without having to retake the core.

It's mostly a formality but if you don't know the fundamentals of operation, it will be very difficult to pass.