This Health care Debate Is making me sick

[Brian Degulis]

The idea that this a "health care" debate is deception. This country has the best health care on the planet this is a health insurance debate. The Obama administration is telling us that cost of health insurance is to high leaving 50mil people un insured. The first question is why is it so costly? One reason is that for the past 25 years our government has been mandating coverage for pregnancy and viagra and a whole host of other things that are choices. The next question is how many of that 50 mil could afford some sort of coverage but elect not? The Obama administration tells us that electing to not purchase health insurance is un acceptable and they want to mandate it forcing everyone to have health insurance or face penalties. They tell us this is the way it must be because those without insurance get medical attention at hospital emergency rooms and don't pay the bill so as taxpayers that cost us all money. Well who decided to mandate that hospitals treat anyone who shows up? Who decided that even people with no means of paying without life treating conditions people that aren't even here legally must be treated? Our government that's who the same government that now tells us they must start providing health insurance to solve a problem they used our tax dollars to help create. The idea that everyone without insurance gets treated at an emergency room then stiffs the hospital is absurd. Many people have affordable high deductible disaster policies. When they need treatment for something minor something that's normal and expected they go to a doctor and they pay for the service. This administration would have you believe that never happens.

So they tell us this is all about providing people with the best possible health insurance they keep saying that over and over. Now they're talking about taxing "gold plated coverage". Wait a minute isn't providing good coverage what this is all about? Then why would you want to raise the cost of good coverage? You would think that those that are willing to pay for the best without costing the taxpayers a dime would be what we all want. I employ 17 people and provide them with gold plated coverage. This includes they're families so there's probably around 50 people covered. In this economy it's getting harder and harder for me to pay for it. A cost increase would probably force me to get rid of it and replace it with something cheaper in other words 50 people would now not be converted as well as they were.

They tell us we must have a government option in other words a government owned and run insurance company. They say this will keep private insurance companies honest because they will have to compete with the government option. How in the world is any private insurance company going to compete with a competitor that does not have to make a profit. A competitor that gets to make the rules A competitor that can use the power of taxation to supplement they're government option. The answer is simple private companies will not be able to compete and eventually the government option won't be an option it will be the only choice and it will be mandated.

So you really have to ask yourself is this about providing everyone with good health insurance or is this about getting everyone on the government provided plan? It seems pretty clear to me that this about getting everyone on the government plan. If that were to happen if government were to provide everyone with health insurance they will certainly use that to control every aspect of your life. They will justify it the same way they now justify the need for the government plan. The next step would be to nationalize health care itself and then will be right in line with Canada. We will go from providing the best health care on the planet to something that resembles the post office or social security or department of motor vehicle etc.

I wonder if all you Obama supporters will ever wake up and see what's really happening?

Brian

 

[labrador]

Don't hold your breath Brian, uninformed people are what we have voting nowdays. There are more of them than us these days. Anything for free, however they don't realize it's not free. I'm in the same boat with you with 20 employees. Charge them a measly 13.00 per week. They bitch about that and when I tell them what it really costs, most in the shop basiclly say I can afford it. That while I'm driving a Pacifica with 125000 miles on it and have my house and everything I own pledged to the bank so I can keep paying them while the business has lost money for the last 2 yrs. On the bright side thing are looking up. Just got a 1mm contract and have quoted more projects in the last 2 months than in the last 2 yrs. Maybe I'll just build it up and sell as I've put more than 10 yrs on this old body in the last 1 year.

 

[spartonboat1]

Setting the health care bill debate aside, I am very concerned for the financial welfare of the country, esp. 7-10 years down the road. That is when I 'should' be retired, but will I be able to with any confidence? I am very concerned!

Someway, somehow, there are $93T (yes trillion) in unfunded mandates buried in that gawdawful bill, plus the medicaid and medicare mandates. P.s., both Medicaid and Medicare are already basically bankrupt.

Add to that, all the Social Security funds have already been spent and useless IOU's are all that is left. It is really an 'income transfer' program, since no funds are in reserve for the SS system. I do not have at hand how many $trillion that is. (Income Transfer- funds in, instantly out, none set aside in reserve).

This may be the most incompetent, bordering on criminal behavior, congress we have ever had. They truly may take down the country. I will grant you that the health care system could stand fine tuning, but the cure is going to kill the patient!

 

[Pete]

Having just turned 65 and gone on Medicare, perhaps I can help some younger folks plan better than I did for this event. The Admiral and I did the transition within an 8 month period so we got hit all at one time. The bottom line is we have Medicare Part A and B with supplemental coverage provided by the company I retired from, for a premium. The total I pay in health insurance premiums went up 2.5X from my previous premium, pre Medicare, for the same basic coverage. Why you ask, because the Medicare Part B premium is "means determined". Your prior year tax return determines your premium, and the differences are big bucks. And if you file jointly, even if the Admiral had no income, she gets the same premium. When making plans for how to take income of any type on a deferred basis in retirement, just to be safe, collect it all at least 24 months before you turn 65. The exact timing varies with your birthday but 24 is a winner for everyone. This is worth checking out in your planning so you get your case exactly right. You want to be semi poor when you go on Medicare.

I think this is a good example of what is to come with our future government run health care. Once the basics are in place, "means based premiums" will be close behind. Part of the redistribution of the wealth plan. You will have the opportunity to pay for your health insurance and likely a few others, who will not be covering their own responsibility. Doesn't it make you feel warm all over to know the government is going to help you help others.

Pete

 

[bobk]

Im going to get creamed for this, but let's escalate the argument to a higher plane. Bring in Darwin.... then ask why we should be helping those with out the desire or gumption to better them selves. That is counter to evolution theory and survival of the fittest. Is health care a right, or is it to be earned by those who are willing to bust their buts to have it? Our country was founded on 'equal opportunity' not give away to all. Work for what you want! I did and so did you.

Bob

 

[Boatsb]

Welcome to the Darwin Party.

 

[Genesis]

The problem with health "insurance" is that it is not insurance.

This problem, by the way, was created by President Nixon with wage and price controls. He essentially "fathered" the employer-linked health system.

This system makes working for a small business or as an individual rather than a large corporation ruinously expensive for health coverage, and thus dramatically disadvantages such enterprises. It also leads to millions of personal bankruptcies when you get sick between jobs or as a self-employed individual.

The solution is to force insurance companies who want to sell insurance to actually sell insurance, not pre-paid medical plans called insurance. One means of doing this is to mandate that any company selling any plan to any institution or individual must allow any person within that state to enroll in the same plan for the same price, irrespective of employment.

Second, force all providers to publish price lists and forbid billing and collection at any other than the published price. This stops the "bill an uninsured person at 500% of the insurance-reimbursed price" game that hospitals run ROUTINELY.

The uninsured guy who shows up with a heart attack and no money is a problem. The simplest solution to THAT is to pass a law allowing the hospital to bill the federal government (at their published price) for the care; the federal government immediately pays it, but that becomes a lien on the individual owed to the government (the IRS.) This stops the cost-shifting yet does not invade on the "we won't let you die" meme we have become accustomed to, and further forces complete disclosure of the cost of uninsured individuals. For non-citizens that amount is billed back to the nation of your citizenship and if the nation refuses it is directly deducted from all other foreign aid provided to that nation.

End of problem (immediately), but this destroys the cartel behavior of the health insurers, providers and physicians.

 

[Brian Degulis]

We don't have to become the Darwin part nor do we have base policy on survival of the fittest. But we do have to realize that our government does not have the peoples best interest at heart. We have to understand that depending on government to solve problems requires that we fund and empower government and that's always a mistake. The result will be exactly what we are seeing now a government engaged in social engineering who's goal is to cater to it's supporters and ignore all others. Combine that with a News media that runs 9 to 1 liberal and you've got a prescription for disaster. It's mind boggling to me to listen to Obama continuously blame the Bush administration for the recession. One of the first things Obama did when he became a US Senator was to join Chris Dod in filibustering legislation introduced by the Bush administration to stop Fanny and Freddy from insuring liar loans. I'm not defending the Bush adminstration only pointing out the dishonesty in Obama's blame game. But the main stream media never talks about that they present use with a one sided view that steers public opinion away from the facts.

Brian

 

[Boatsb]

Hospitals need to have a set price as Brian states. Better too would be the end of the not for profit hospitals that overbill the insured and working to give free care to the poor. If they want to be benevolent than do it from their money. DO NOT OVER CHARGE ME TO GIVE FREE STUFF TO SOMEONE ELSE.

People who chose not to have insurance are like motorcyclists without helmets. They took the risk. Stabilize them and send them home. I have a neighbor with a 2 year old CTS that has no insurance by choice and goes to the hospital when she needs something so she can get it free. FYI she bought the car cash. has more than ample income but takes away from others for herself.

Oh yeah and not born in the US.

 

[Brian Degulis]

The problem with health "insurance" is that it is not insurance.

This problem, by the way, was created by President Nixon with wage and price controls. He essentially "fathered" the employer-linked health system.

This system makes working for a small business or as an individual rather than a large corporation ruinously expensive for health coverage, and thus dramatically disadvantages such enterprises. It also leads to millions of personal bankruptcies when you get sick between jobs or as a self-employed individual.

The solution is to force insurance companies who want to sell insurance to actually sell insurance, not pre-paid medical plans called insurance. One means of doing this is to mandate that any company selling any plan to any institution or individual must allow any person within that state to enroll in the same plan for the same price, irrespective of employment.

Second, force all providers to publish price lists and forbid billing and collection at any other than the published price. This stops the "bill an uninsured person at 500% of the insurance-reimbursed price" game that hospitals run ROUTINELY.

The uninsured guy who shows up with a heart attack and no money is a problem. The simplest solution to THAT is to pass a law allowing the hospital to bill the federal government (at their published price) for the care; the federal government immediately pays it, but that becomes a lien on the individual owed to the government (the IRS.) This stops the cost-shifting yet does not invade on the "we won't let you die" meme we have become accustomed to, and further forces complete disclosure of the cost of uninsured individuals. For non-citizens that amount is billed back to the nation of your citizenship and if the nation refuses it is directly deducted from all other foreign aid provided to that nation.

End of problem (immediately), but this destroys the cartel behavior of the health insurers, providers and physicians.

Take a good look at what Karl wrote. Those seem like very good ideas to lower the cost of health care and insurance premiums without spending a dime of taxpayer money or expanding government. There are lots of good ideas like these so why don't are elected officials embrace them? Are they looking out for us or looking out for themselves? Our next opportunity to get rid of these bastards is not to far off lets not waste it.

Brian

 

[Canuck Dennis]

Should actually be called "Elementobama"


New Element Discovered On The Periodic Table

Lawrence Livermore Laboratories has discovered the heaviest element yet known to science. The new element, Governmentium (Gv), has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons, and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.

These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons. Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert; however, it can be detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A tiny amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction that would normally take less than a second, to take from 4 days to 4 years to complete.

Governmentium has a normal half-life of 2 - 6 years. It does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places.

In fact, Governmentium's mass will actually increase over time, since each re-organization will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes. This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a critical concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as critical morass.

When catalyzed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium, an element that radiates just as much energy as Governmentium since it has half as many peons but twice as many morons.

 

[Vincentc]

Amen

I am pleased to know that chemistry can be used to explain so well the governmental process. The system is out of control and underlying the loss of control is a pervasive intimidation of any rational analysis of what is happening.

For the most part it may be preaching to the chior on this site, but there is, even here a hesitation to speak the obvious truth. I fear that if the tide is not turned it will overwhelm us.

Vincent

 

[krush]

Can't we just go back to catastrophic insurance and pay cash for routine stuff like you old farts did back in the 50's and before?

Can't afford anything? Well there used to be a lot of church hospitals.

 

[Brian Degulis]

You don't have to back to the 50s many people have affordable catastrophic coverage today. The idea that anyone who has catastrophic coverage or no coverage goes to a hospital emergency room for everything then stiffs the hospital for the bill is pure BS. The Obama administration has been pedaling BS from the beginning counting on a bias media and an un informed public to make it fly. This administration has already done a lot of damage that will take a long time to pay for and un do. If they're vision of health care becomes reality it will be irreversible and change the dynamic of this country forever. Like all government entitlement programs it will become a government revenue stream that serves a select few and financially burdens many. If you have any doubts just look at social security.

Brian

 

[skindr]

Economics 101: First and foremost, the govt. has no money it hasn't stolen from someone else. I further believe that our medicare money, built from money stolen from me and others like me for decades, with the promise of insurance in my older years, has been depleted with these trillion dollar bank and other giveaways with no restrictions on where the money went. I think that explains the rush to get something signed so this fact never comes out ! Talk about a ponzi scheme ! makes Madoff look like an amateur . The only change we'll see is going to be what's left in your pocket after these clowns are done.

 

[SportFishCruising]

Doctors Respond to Obama Health Care Plan:

The Allergists voted to scratch it, but the Dermatologists advised not to make any rash moves.

The Gastroenterologists had sort of a gut feeling about it, but the Neurologists thought the Administration had a lot of nerve.

The Obstetricians felt they were all laboring under a misconception.

Ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted.

Pathologists yelled, "Over my dead body!" while the Pediatricians said, 'Oh, Grow up!'

The Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, while the Radiologists could see right
through it.

Surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing.

The Internists thought it was a bitter pill to swallow, and the Plastic Surgeons said, "This puts a whole new face on the matter."

The Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but the Urologists were pissed off at the whole idea.

The Anesthesiologists thought the whole idea was a gas, and the Cardiologists didn't have the heart to say no.

In the end, the Proctologists won out, leaving the entire decision up to the assholes in Washington.

 

[rjwilliams]

The first thread in this discussion repeated the oft cited statement that the US has the best health care in the world. I get tired of hearing that statement bantered about because in reality it is far from being fact.

Comparing the U.S. with Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zeland, France, Italy and the U.K. the U.S. health care system is pretty crappy. The comparison with these 8 countries showed that we had the best survial rate for breast cancer and the secod best survival rate for cervical cancer and childhood lukemia. Basically our cancer care is outstanding but that where the "we are the best" comparison ends. The U.S. has the worst survival rate of these 8 countries for kidney transplants and ranked 4 out of the 8 in survival rates for colorectal cander. In this eight country comparison the U. S. ranked last in years of potential life lost to circulatory diseases, respirtory diseases and diabetes and had the second highest dealt rate from bronchitis, asthma, and emphysema.

We are ranked by the 37th in over all health care performance by the World Health Organization. We rank 24th in life expectancy and 33rd in Infant Mortality Rate -5 ranks lower than from Cuba and just 1 rank ahead of Croatia (even scarier the CIA in their World Fact Book ranks the US 46th in the world for infant mortality.

We do rank high in one other area. We are second in the world for the higest expenditures on health care at 15.2% of GDP.

Best health care in the world - doesn't look like that to me. We have some the best trained doctors, some of the best technology, and some of the classiest medical facilities in the world yet we fail miserably in delivering that care in an equitable manner to all of our citizens.

 

[Brian Degulis]

The stats your quoting are a joke put out by those with a socialized health care agenda for people gulable enough to believe them. 46th in infant mortality rate Does that sound right to you? Abortions were included in that stat that's the kind of junk your pedaling.

So tell me if you were diagnosed with colorectal cancer will you be heading to Cuba for treatment? Do some of your own fact finding and stop believing the BS that's what got us were we are.

Brian

 

[Boatsb]

Don't forget that we have one of the highest intakes of sugar per capita for the diabetics, High fat intake and red meats for circulatory and issues and one of the worst diest in the world. Lots of fat people too

We have too many people who do not seek medical care until it is too late not because of cost but because they are lazy.

 

[Brian Degulis]

Oh I just love those those bogus stats. You see them and first think WOW that's terrible. Then you look into it and it's all misrepresentations put out by people like Michael Moore. I wonder where that fat bastard will run for treatment when his heart explodes under the strain of carring around all that blubber for so long?

Brian