The saga continues

[Full Moon]

It seems like everytime we go out something breaks, burns up or we hit something. Yesterday coming back from a great day of sun and snorkling with friends someone riding in the cockpit yelled up that the right engine was smoking. My boat is a 41 conv. with natual Detroit 8v53s. They don't smoke. As soon as I confirmed the smoke, my first thought was that the air box had triped as had happened before. Within a minute I shut the engine down and figured that since we were only about 10 minutes from the slip we could come in single engine and fire it up at idle to maneuver into the slip. Within the next minute the left engine started spooling down. No smoke, just loosing RPM, it eventually quit. With everything dead I saw smoke coming from the air intakes so before I went down from the flybridge I grabbed the fire extinguisher. When I open the cabin door the whole boat was filled with nasty black smoke. I did a quick peek into the engine hatch expecting to see fire or at least set it off as soon as I let in the air. No fire, just nasty black smoke and about two feet of water in the engine room and the sound of more water coming in. We were able to figure out that it was coming in from the exhaust so we plugged an old soft life preserver into the exhaust pipe to slow down the flow. We called Port control (we were coming into the marina at Roosevelt Road Naval Station) and reported our condition then we called Sea-Tow and they showed up about 30 minutes later (which wasn't soon enough for the admiral) They used two pumps and got the water pumped out and went below to see exactly what had happened. Just as everyone expects, the clamps had broken on the exhaust hose and it was pumping the boat full of water. Sea-Tow towed us into the marina and we got power and secured for the night.

The question is with that much water, was it high enough to have gotten into the engines. I expect the generator might be toast because it got pretty wet. I'm on my way this morning with a Detroit mechanic to evaluate the condition. I don't expect good news with my boating luck.

 

[67hat34c]

Dont want to steal Scotts (boatsb) Thunder but he has the same boat and experienced a similar breakdown. His Exhaust was leaking inside ER and the soot clogged the airfilter on the Breather can. Then can then collapsed almost completely. It was coughing and puking black smoke when he pulled in to his slip. Dont think he had the water issue as the exhaust leak was before the shower head.

 

[Genesis]

The good news is that you PROBABLY didn't ingest water into the mains.

The bad news is that you DID ingest a lot of soot, and the airboxes are probably horribly fouled. Check it out because soot ingestion is one of the few ways you can kill these engines.

Change the oil immediately, short-time it on the next change (25 hours), and inspect that airbox. If the soot/goo is not up to the level of the ports on the liners LEAVE IT ALONE, provided the airbox drains are still working. If it IS over the bottom of the liner ports, the liner ports have fouling in/on them (e.g. partially obstructed) or the drains are hopelessly fouled you MUST remove it. Doing so is a tricky operation and you CAN'T get ANY of it into the cylinders, but you must remove it ALL. If you only do a partial job some of it will go "mobile" later on and get ingested with bad results.

On the short-time oil change (+25 hours from now) run oil analysis - if you get normal soot levels back you're ok. If they're still elevated (don't bother wasting the $20 on the oil in there now - its fouled) change it again on 20-25 hour intervals until the numbers come back to normal.

 

[Passages]

What type of intake filters are you using? If pleated paper types are they black with soot? If so, that's good as they may have captured the bulk of the particulates.

Regardless, change the oil as Genesis suggested. There is a fair chance the situation is not as grim as you fear.

 

[Genesis]

On Naturals you have a fairly decent shot at being ok; with turbo engines and especially TAs you can have big trouble because the aftercooler will precipitate out the soot right in the airbox due to the drop in temperature.

Still, you gotta look. If the airboxes are fouled badly enough to cause trouble and you clean 'em now, odds are you avoid any major damage. You leave 'em alone and pieces of the crud break free and get into the cylinders, its a different story.

The oil changes and airbox inspection are easy and fast.

 

[Boatsb]

As Steve said I have been there and done that. Luckily the filter trapped the soot and starved the engine for air. It collapsed the intake silencer and I shut her down pretty quick too. I had a break at the back end of the manifold and was just sending exhaust to the intake filter ( they are 10 inches from each other). Luckily the damage was only the manifold but it was a bear to fix.

If the engine shut down on its own I would guess the filter clogged solid and if you were gentle with it I would bet the soot did not get to the airbox. A quick check is only a few minutes. My genny was running when my manifold failed and I had recently out a filter in the hush box intake. Needless to say that was clogged too.

I would first check and or replace every clamp on the exhaust system and also see if the supports are missing. I have supports for all the hoses and the "mufflers" too so if a clamp were to fail it would not fall off the flange by gravity alone.

 

[solanderi]

As a learning point,

Would a Carbon Monoxide detector have alerted the owners to this problem or is the transfer from exhaust leak to air filter 10 inches away a problem only detected by seeing the leak ? Thank you,

Greg
Hat Time
1985 45C

 

[Pascal]

what happened to your bilge pumps, they should have gone off and at least warn you of the rising water before loosing power?

once the hole was plugged, they should have dewatered the boat as well.

did you check the oil in the engine to see if water got in? if it did, then you have very little time to flush the engines before damage occurs, a day or two at the most. Same with the genny... need to rinse and lube so that corrosion doesn't set in.

Whenever something goes wrong (an engine loosing power, vibration, smell, etc...) first thing i do is check the ER right away just in case of water coming in... every second counts.

 

[Boatsb]

As a learning point,

Would a Carbon Monoxide detector have alerted the owners to this problem or is the transfer from exhaust leak to air filter 10 inches away a problem only detected by seeing the leak ? Thank you,

Greg
Hat Time
1985 45C

In my instance the detector would not have gone off until I shut the engine down and CO may not have triggered it anyway. A smoke/CO combo may.

As for bilge pump indicators and high water alarms they could help alert you to the problem. Could the boat dewater it self with the engine off? probably but would you take the chance if it was you? I wouldn't. I plan to put a 3/4 HP self priming pumo with a hose for emergencies like this that runs off 110 V. That way if the 4 12V pumps fail and the motors can not be running I have the genny or maybe an inverter to save my buttocks.

 

[krush]

with turbo engines and especially TAs you can have big trouble because the aftercooler will precipitate out the soot right in the airbox due to the drop in temperature.

huh?

 

[drburke]

...I plan to put a 3/4 HP self priming pump with a hose for emergencies like this that runs off 110 V. That way if the 4 12V pumps fail and the motors can not be running I have the genny or maybe an inverter to save my buttocks.

And for the record, that setup is too affordable not to do. I got a SS pump exactly as described from Harbor Freight for something like $59 (sans hose).

In retrospect, I probably should have upgraded from the cheap Chinese item, but boy does it move some water! Essentially, pretty cheap insurance (if I assume mine works when needed ).

DAN

 

[Genesis]

What's "huh" about it Krush?

You ever seen an aftercooler come out of a Detroit that's been in service for a while and had an exhaust leak, even a tiny one? Guess where all the anything "crap" that gets past the air filter (like soot particles) goes and ends up?

The A/Cs purpose is to drop the temperature of the incoming air charge. Oil vapor carried along (e.g. from Airseps, etc) condenses and with it drops out the soot from suspension right on the fins and in the airbox.

 

[krush]

What's "huh" about it Krush?

You ever seen an aftercooler come out of a Detroit that's been in service for a while and had an exhaust leak, even a tiny one? Guess where all the anything "crap" that gets past the air filter (like soot particles) goes and ends up?

The A/Cs purpose is to drop the temperature of the incoming air charge. Oil vapor carried along (e.g. from Airseps, etc) condenses and with it drops out the soot from suspension right on the fins and in the airbox.

I don't know what the temperature drops are across the cooler, but I don't think there is much condensing going on in there.

My "huh" was in reference to how the hell a change in temp causes precipitate to fall from a gas stream.

 

[REBrueckner]

And don't forget to rinse off the engine exteriors with fresh water....salty water will continually attract moisture and rust....

 

[Genesis]

I don't know what the temperature drops are across the cooler, but I don't think there is much condensing going on in there.

My "huh" was in reference to how the hell a change in temp causes precipitate to fall from a gas stream.

Next time I pull one out of an engine that has had a sooting problem I'll take some pictures and you can see for yourself (top and bottom)

Theory and practice are two different things Krush; there's oil vapor in the hot air stream and when it cools, the oil condenses out - taking with it the soot.

No deposition at the input/top, the bottom and sides (in the airbox and coolest, of course) are CAKED, frequently with 1/4" or more worth of gritty, oily crud comprised of oil vapor and soot.

Kinda like sandpaper - great stuff to run through your engine.

 

[Pascal]

the problem with pumps that need to be manually activated or setup is that by the time you do that it maybe too late. the genny may be out, the inverter or the genny maybe underwater.

Decent pumping capability to start dewatering or at least slowing down the flow immediately is very valuable... a pair of 3700gph bilge pumps is a good start and may keep the water level reasonable till you can plug the hole

 

[krush]

Next time I pull one out of an engine that has had a sooting problem I'll take some pictures and you can see for yourself (top and bottom)

Theory and practice are two different things Krush; there's oil vapor in the hot air stream and when it cools, the oil condenses out - taking with it the soot.

No deposition at the input/top, the bottom and sides (in the airbox and coolest, of course) are CAKED, frequently with 1/4" or more worth of gritty, oily crud comprised of oil vapor and soot.

Kinda like sandpaper - great stuff to run through your engine.

I know what happens, I've seen it. You can't condense something that isn't a vapor. The boiling/flash point of motor oil is going to be much higher than the temperature of the intake air at ANY point in the system--thus the oil is not a vapor, it's a mist. There is quite a difference.

But even if we ignore that, condensing (which isn't going on anyway) a vapor from a gas stream is not going to release particulate matter. If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say the many changes in direction that the air has to make is a driving factor to the removal of both particulate and mist, because that is what removes.

Separation is a mechanical process--both of particulate matter AND mist.

 

[Passages]

You're both right. The process is referred to as coelescing. It will convert atomized mist into larger droplets and precipate out of the air stream - within the precipitate will be most of the particulate soot.

This process will be most prevelant in the vicinity of the aftercooler but you may be correct Krush, it may be the result of the tortious path of airflow as opposed to delta T condensate.

 

[Pascal]

ROFL! call it whatever you want, I think we all know Karl's experience with Detroits... it's real world, hands on, experience.... not some theory in a book.

 

[Full Moon]

Update. Got to the boat and everything was still not leaking any more. My mechanic started replacing the hose and clamps that connect the exhaust riser to an elbow that goes into the muffler hose that goes thru the bulkhead to the muffler beside the port fuel tank under the cockpit. I can't decide whether to be amazed at the resourcefullness or sick at my stomach. The elbow that was used was a grey PVC 45 angle with a 6 inch outside diameter which wouldn't fit the replacement 6 in. hose. Is this PVC an acceptable replacement or is that a stupid question? The PO also had the same problem we did because we could only get about an inch of the hose on elbow, so only one clamp was doing anything anyway. The hose looks like it had been there a long time. Dry and brittle and deteriorating.

Some good news, after some coaxing, the right engine did start. It initially would not turn over. My mechanic kept bumping the starter and it rolled past that cylinder and it made an uncomfortable gurgling noise. Water? It did start and seemed to run normally. I didn't run it very long because we still needed to work down there. The tropics, 92 degrees and about 80% humidity. That is bad enough so I didn't want to make a bad situation worse.

I hadn't thought about the air cleaners. Mine are just round perforated cans with a foam sock around them. I will add that for his project list for tomorrow. I will wash everything down. I have a pressure washer that has a soap dispenser at low pressure. I think I can use that without blasting everything so bad that I can't stand to be down there. Is there anything that I can use and pump overboard without a problem?

I've got three bilge pumps that in no way were keeping up with the inflow. I have one right in the stern and two at the lowest point just as you go into the head. I haven't been able to check yet, but I'm not sure the aft one was even working. I check the forward ones manually every time I come on the boat, but the aft one is hard to get to. The two forward ones were working full blast. Looks like it may be time to upgrade capacity. As far as the suggestion for a 110 volt pump goes, it wouldn't have done me any good since the gen was also drowned out and I don't have an inverter, so no 110.

Sea Tow probably saved another classic Hatt from going to the bottom, but sticker shock was a surprise. $1500 for two pumps to de-water and 3 hours of service. I guess the tow to the marina was covered by the membership. Another thing that strikes fear was the captains remark as he pulled along side. "This incident will be conducted on a salvage basis". Holy crap! Lawyers and court for a long time and I still have a mortgage. The good news is that the guy was professional and worked his butt off in that nasty environment and still only charged me 3 hours labor. I think this will be covered by insurance, so a scary situation, once the smoke clears may not be quite so bad after all.