Stater issues on 8 71's and almost out of ideas.

[Shaunc]

I am hoping that someone can save me from going crazy......

I had a bank of 32 v batteries going bad so as i decided before my trip they needed replacing (should be on a trip already and now stuck on the dock)

Here is what happened that lead up to the problems.

While installing the batteries and hooking up the last jumper, the hatch lid decided to fall. As  I grabbed the hatch the jumper shorted out across to the next batter and sparked and glowed red hot. So with a hatch in 1 had i grabbed my hammer to push off the jumper with the handle so i did not burn my hand.

My new batteries had lead melted on them from the terminals. As i was hooking up the the threads I figured let me finish the install and check if the batteries we ok. I finished the install, did a test start, all started ok.

I was dumbass and did not shut my switch of to the motor. My mistake.

Yesterday morning as I was about to leave the dock for a trip, the port side starter made a loud slamming noise Like the bendix was hitting the flywheel and bouncing back but not turning it.

Did a couple of checks and decided to pull the starter. Ran it over to the rebuild guys. I got a call this morning. The bushes were burnt out and signs of burn wear on the windings. Said could be from heat due to low voltage or high voltage.
They rebuilt the starter and put on a new solenoid. $285. While starter was out I cycled the flywheel to make sure the ring gear was not damaged, it was all ok.
I installed the starter motor and tested it and it fired right up. Then i did a second test and it did the same slamming and then started. I shut it down and then did a 3rd and back to square one. Not starting and slamming.

I cleaned the terminals when hooking up starter ans sparyed them with corrosion X . So I figured I must have screwed up my batteries. So I ran and got another set and installed them and still nothing. Just the same sound slamming.

I found out that my parallel solenoid was no longer working and it was that is how I was starting the engine and that is why I decided to change the batteries. But this should not be the cause of the problem???

Tested voltage at every terminal along the way and had 34.5 v all the way to the starter. Maybe the battery on /off switch to the motoer had gone bad, pulled that and hooked it up to by pass the switch. Same sound and no starting.

I checked every connection, cleaned every connection and still nothing.
What am i missing?
Day 2 of misery stuck to the dock.
I need to get off the dock and hoping someone can save me !!!

 

[Briankinley2004]

You got me but I can tell you just because you have the volts doesn't mean you have the amps to turn the starter motor. Did you try paralleling since you rebuilt the starter?

Edit- I see your parallel switch is out. Sounds like something else going on with the shorted batteries. Can you remove the bank that was shorted out and run a heavy jumper to the good bank and try then

 

[Shaunc]

That was my plan for tomorrow morning. The batteries have the same amps as my last ones, i did think about that.

The parallel went out same time batteries shorted.

Could it be a bad starter button, just thinking about everything possible?

 

[scottinsydney]

Bush mechanic's thoughts...

Is slamming the same as clicking? A solenoid will click, a slam would be the starter gear engaging but not turning the flywheel.

Try bypassing the heavy duty cables between good batteries to the starter. And replace battery connector cables. You may have fried the heavy duty cables between battery bank and motor and ALSO the the cables that put the batteries in series. Connectors may have lost connectivity. Motor may also have lost its earth.

Previous post is correct that you need amperage/current to engage and turn the flywheel. You have volts but not posibly amps/current.

You should be able to resolve with a few sets of ultra heavy duty jumper leads.

Replace the ignition fuse in the metal fuse box. Should be possibly a 20 amp fuse.

Please keep us posted on the solution. Good luck.

 

[Captain Ralph]

Hopefully you did not reuse the fried strap.
Or any cable involved in the short loop.

 

[Shaunc]

Yes, its definitely slamming and not clicking when starter engages.

I have made up new jumper leads for the batteries.

Ignition fuse in metal box? Dont believe I have seen that or its been modified/eliminated.

Let see today, going to run heavy jumper cables from batteries to starter and see if that at least works.

Day 3 stuck at the dock.

 

[Lmcruiser]

Have you retested the batteries. Last summer had port engine (6-71) suddenly not start but selonoid engaged with a clunk sound. Battery voltage was normal with reliable volt meter. Thought at first since engine would not turn over that I might have had an injector leak and hydrolock. This was after having my service guy help. But then we used a battery tester with load and it turned out that batteries which were about 6 years old were dead. Surface voltage normal but dead with load. Hope that helps.

 

[davidwigler]

Hard to see how a dead short at the batteries fried the starter or the parallel switch. You didn’t operate either one during the short.

Check and clean the ground terminals at the batteries and at the engine blocks.

 

[miboatnutz]

Seeing as how the electrical short had things glowing red hot and battery terminals melted per your description, I'd be inclined to do the following:

1. Shut that battery bank off.
2. Disconnect positive and negative battery cables at the bank leading to the engine/main feed
3. Remove and closely inspect all jumpers used in that bank of batteries.
4. Perform a battery load test on each individual battery in that bank. If they're 8 volt batteries you might need to borrow a load tester from someone who sells that voltage battery who has a tester (most are six or twelve volt).
5. If everything checks out OK then I'd put it all back together.
6. We always keep a heavy duty set of jumper cables on our boat in case the parallel switch takes a dump. I'd connect the jumper cables from the opposite bank to the positive and negative engine leads of the bank in question and see if the engine starts using the opposite bank of batteries only without a problem. Would actually start the engine a few times to verify that the starter is working properly on a good bank of batteries.
7. I'd then remove the jumper cables and reconnect the leads to the bank in question and try and start the engine again. If you continue to have a problem then the issue is between the bank and the starter and at that point have ruled out the batteries and connections.

If I had to guess, I'd say the fireworks probably caused a partial short in one or two of the batteries and when you engage the starter it has enough current to energize the Bendix but not enough to actually turn the starter under load (engine compression), hence the knocking or clunking noise.

Just my 2 cents.....

 

[Pascal]

I think you stated the problem in the first post:

“ My new batteries had lead melted on them from the terminals”

God knows what happened inside...

Personally I m not a big fan of parallel solenoids, I prefer a simple heavy duty battery switch. They rarely fail.. I haven’t installed a parallel system on my repowered cummins but it will be a battery switch not a solenoid

 

[Shaunc]

So once agin all the input here helped and I am eventually off the dock and underway.Heading south to self isolation.I will fill all in the details of what it took to it fixedThanks for all the input

 

[racclarkson@gmail.com]

I think you stated the problem in the first post:“ My new batteries had lead melted on them from the terminals”God knows what happened inside...Personally I m not a big fan of parallel solenoids, I prefer a simple heavy duty battery switch. They rarely fail.. I haven’t installed a parallel system on my repowered cummins but it will be a battery switch not a solenoid

FWIW, a 12 volt load tester works fine in terms of determining if the battery holds a load.

 

[Briankinley2004]

So once agin all the input here helped and I am eventually off the dock and underway.Heading south to self isolation.I will fill all in the details of what it took to it fixedThanks for all the input

Please do so. Inquiring minds want to know

 

[Shaunc]

On the hook and waking up to an awesome Florida morning.

Lying awake a night trying to figure this out, what Brian said that just because you have the volts does not mean you have the amps!! kept playing over in my mind.

I did leave out that I am one of the 871 owners that switched to 8v golf cart batteries after much debate and advice from other members on the site. I then ran into Pat from Murphys Law who had a 74 53MY and showed me his set up that he had been operating for years. So I did the switch on the starboard side and it worked well for a few years so now I was switching out the port side.

I then followed some of the other Brian's recommendations and it looked more and more like battery issues.

It made me wonder if the 2nd set of loaner batteries that I put in, had the amps? Well it turns out they did not. The auto repair shop ( I know one of the guys that works there) that lent me them did not bother to check the amps and neither did I. The place I bought my 1st set closed by 5pm and I wanted to get this figured out ASAP.

Yesterday, I took the 1st set off batteries back to the local battery shop where I bought them. Dave at Possey batteries turns out has a wealth of knowledge. When I called him to tell him I was bring them in, he said I need to take him the jumper cables old and the new ones and main cable lugs that hook to the batteries.

He load tested the batteries and the batteries tested well, 650 plus amps per battery. He said the thread post where I shorted them had melted the lead was not level around the thread. The main positive cable lugs had a dimple on it from many years ago and that combined with damaged lead terminals, he felt that it was preventing getting a good load draw.

He said he would rebuild the damaged posts and build me new jumpers. He recommended I get a file and file down the dimple on the positive lug and that would help.

A few hours later and I was changing out batteries again and Dave from Possy had repaired the lead on the posts, new jumper cables and a filed down dimple.

With my wife and I hold our breath, it fired right up 1st and it did for a second and third time. We were free at last. Time to leave the dock!!!!

What this meant is that the started motor that I had rebuild did not have to be rebuilt, but just as well as I did because it clearly had issues. It may have gone out on this trip so I will take that as a positive.

So lessons learnt.
Secure the floor hatch so it does not fall on you when working on the batteries.
A slight damaged lead post and an old dimple on a lug can mean not enough draw.
Make sure the batteries have enough amps even if they have the volts.
I should have asked the local battery expert for advice before messing with a 2nd set
The curse of taking out the starter motor to rebuilt was a blessing
Always ask for advice from the forum because you will always get good solid help.

As a last item, my parallel solenoid was bad. Pulled it out and it was an old Delco Remy one with a part number. I called Sams and they had one for $199 and would over night air one to me for another $100 plus. I told them I would use jumper cables in an emergency, but would reach out to them when back. I was also thinking about what Pascal mentioned about a simple battery switch but decided to deal with it when I get back.
I then entered the old serial number online and found and old new in box one on ebay for $30. I ordered that immediately. Got lucky there.

Thanks again for all the help and stay safe and healthy during this crisis.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Glad you figured it out. Now just remember to stay 50ft away from other boats or the Governor will come after you.

 

[davidwigler]

A 1-2-both switch sure would have narrowed that down easily.

 

[Briankinley2004]

Glad you got her going. I had an issue with my starter hanging up that was running my batteries down. I couldn't hear it with engine running. Thought my batteries were bad but it wasn't. If you get a chance can you post or send me the name of the place that rebuilt your starter? My boat is in Tarpon Springs. Right now its still going but I think it is going to need a rebuild soon.

 

[Shaunc]

Hey Brian

I used Hutchinson Auto Electric, Mark there is excellent and they did mine in 2 hours after drop off and for $260, I thought that was grate value and service. They did my starboard one a bout 2 years ago.

They are in Tampa just off 60 and the cross town.

Thanks for the help and stay safe and healthy

 

[Briankinley2004]

Thanks Shaun. I will keep this information for the appropriate time