Salvage, what and when is it????????

[Gina Marie]

This past weekend in the Keys a very good friend and fellow Hatteras owner was leaving after a 3 month stay at the marina. As we helped him with his lines and headed out of the marina not more than 20 minutes later we heard coast guard calls and the his Hatteras was on fire and to make matters worst he had no control of his steering and his boat was stuck in gear. All were safe as we the coast guard marine police and boat US were on scene. The Captain stayed with his vessel at all times and never got off. Boat US after much smoke from the engine room put the fire out and towed it to a local marina. My question is when would boat US have a right to salvage and is there such a thing a a partial salvage???

Again all is well with the owner and his family but the 36 Hatteras SF had some major smoke damage in the engine room.

Thanks Gina Marie

 

[Jaxfishgyd]

Salvage is when the boat is in danger of sinking........ I worked for Towboat/US in 2000..... Unlike Seatow, which always said every tow was a salvage.......
The fact he never left the boat has no bearing......

IF the boat was saved from sinking...No matter who saved it, makes it a salvage.....
Now if he didn't have seatow/towboat/us for as cheap as they are.... You WILL pay the price........

 

[Pascal]

if the BUS towboat put out the fire, they did save the boat and will probably file a salvage claim with the owners insurance company.

 

[Gina Marie]

So salvage is simply and only in comes into play if the boat is in danger of sinking. Does that mean taking on water since no water was put into the boat but they did put out the fire thats salvage?????

 

[Pascal]

it's not just in danger of sinking, it's in danger, period.

a fire is as dangerous if not more than sinking so salvage is likely to apply

 

[rsmith]

it's not just in danger of sinking, it's in danger, period.

a fire is as dangerous if not more than sinking so salvage is likely to apply

Boat us has extensive articles on this subject. If I remember correctly you must put yourself in peril to be awarded salvage rights. But since there are a lot of unscrupulous ppl out there , if able you should get in writing that is a contract job and not salvage. even if you have to scribble it on the back of a chart. Being this guy was on fire it should have been the CG responsibility since lives were at risk. The tower should have only taken over when the danger was past since they are towers and not profesional fire fighters like the CG. The problem is even though you are in the right and would win in court, once these guys have a lien on your vessel its like extortion and they know it. and you'l pay just to get rid of them. Modern Day Pirates I would hope that Towboat US and SeaTow are above this kind of crap. But beware of even the private boater that offers help. Sux ya gota think this way.

 

[Avenger]

But beware of even the private boater that offers help. Sux ya gota think this way.

Salvage is a commercial/professional only claim. Liability on the other hand.... you're right, it sux.

 

[Passages]

Couple years ago there was a boat at anchor at Block island. The family went ashore and while away the anchor began to drag. BUS reset the anchor and filed a salvage claim. There was no peril for the BUS crew, there was the potential for damage to the vessel and other vessels in the harbor.

Not sure of the final resolution but just shows some towing companies will claim salvage as a starting point of negoitations with ins companies.

 

[bobk]

BoatUS has a towing form that ought to be on board. Have Seatow sign it before they start work to insure there is an understanding that a tow is just a simple tow.

Bob

 

[sandspur1966]

I worked at sea for over 8 years in the international salvage industry, 5 of those years as ships captain and salvage master.

The wikipedia listing on salvors and the various different types of salvage is pretty accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_salvage

Particular to this discussion is the issue of consent (contract salvage vs. emergency salvage) offshore and protected waters is also a key factor.

My personal opinion is, these ham & egg franchise tow operations are absurd and are operating in a marine version of the old ambulance chaser metaphor, taking advantage of laws that were never meant to apply to small inland recreational situations and counting on owners and insurance companies choosing to pay as opposed to fighting a court case to assert their rights.

You have guys with six pack or 50 or 100 ton inland tickets with a tow certificate and no real expertise running around looking to make a buck by abusing ceturies old laws meant to create order in international commercial shipping salvage situations.

It is the type of thing that an industry group ought to take up as an issue but given the fact that the largest marine representative organization (Boat US) makes most of its revenue from tow contracts and franchise revenue from these guys, it isnt likely that they will weigh in on behalf of the victims of these scams.

Obviously there are good and bad operators but even good ones are choosing to be professionally associated with an indusry that is operating in a legal grey area. The bottom line is that any true emergency which would qualify as elevating the situation to "lloyds open form" should be handled by either the coast guard or trained professional salvors...not a putz with a 50 ton ticket, a skiff with a little light on top and a dream of striking it rich with the slavage of our yachts.

The one thing I would recomend everyone keep in mind is the consent issue. If you are in need of assistance, BEFORE granting consent to a tow operator you need to memorialize the fact that you want to engage in a CONTRACT tow. If they try and board your vessel it is important that you do not grant permission until the salvage method is clearly determined, either in writing or at least take out your cell phone and record the conversation with the video function.

If they try and board your vessel with that idiotic quasi-official, volunteer firefighter pushy-ness that they seem to enjoy, tell them to get off your boat immediately or you will press charges. If they dont comply get on the radio with the CG, who records these calls and inform them that you have a tow operator who does NOT have permission to be aboard and you need assitance.

Unfortunately the US Coast guard has looked the other way on this issue as a way to get out from under all but emergency situations but that calll will get them motivated and most likely the tow guy will start behaving out of fear of losing his ticket.

 

[Boatnut]

We went aground in the Keys a number of years ago. The tow operator we contacted was one of the most honest and helpful individuals I have ever met. We had never been in this situation before, he very nicely explained to us to get an agreement before any lines are attached to your boat. The agreement should spell out in detail what the tow encompasses. The type of tow the cost of the tow, where you are being towed to etc. etc. Once the tow vessel has a line on your boat and you do not have an agreement in place he can charge whatever he wants. Now this was about 10 years ago, but it has always sounded like good abvice. I'm sure in a sinking situation there are extenuating circumstances. I have to wonder, who makes the decision as to whether it's a life threatening situation, or is the boat actually going to sink. As usual leagalize is confusing.

 

[Gina Marie]

Thank you Shawn I think the replies I have gotten will better inform me on what to do. In the case of the 36 Hat on fire. BUS actually jumped in the water and tried to stuff a pillow in the exhaust to shut down the Port engine. He never did board and I am not sure if he asked permission as I was standing away from the Hat with the captains family aboard my vessel. The Coast Guard did board and they exhausted all extinguishers but to no help. Since they could not enter the engine room as the 36 the floor must come up they had to fight the smoke and fire from the outside.

So am I to understand that fire is a issue for the coast guard and not Seatow or BUS.

BUS did throw a nylon line in the water to snag the props to stall the engines it worked on the starboard but not on the port.

Does that consider salvage.

What happens if you don't have insurance.

 

[solanderi]

Thank God everyone is ok.

Of course, now its time for the lawyers/insurance companies to Monday morning quarterback with their 20/20 hindsight.

I find the information that Sandspur has for us is invaluable but I would also like to hear more details on ALL of the tactics that could be employed in the above scenario. I would like to exhaust all possibilities to save myself especially if there was one "key" to this problem.

What was the likely cause of the engine room fire, which fire extinguishers or tactics finally put the fire out, how did the BUS guy snag the prop on one side, why couldnt he get it on the other side etc.......

This info may empower owner/operator with one more tool and save a life or a boat or a boatload of money.

Greg
1985 45C
Hat Time

 

[rsmith]

Salvage is a commercial/professional only claim. Liability on the other hand.... you're right, it sux.

I'm not a ex-spurt on admiralty law but I think anyone who meets the criteria can stake a claim. You don't have to be a commercial operator to do so. The law goes back to the 1700's when there were no commercial operators.

 

[Pascal]

how come they couldnt' shut down the engines? I am assuming this was a diesel boat, no emergency shutoff (air box or fuel?)

when your boat is on fire, i don't think you need to worry about legal issues, signing a contract, etc... a vessel doesn't get in more danger than a fire! every second counts.

was it a real fire or jsut an electrical issue causing smoke but little fire?

after the first few minutes, most boats are usually total loss in case of a fire...

 

[Genesis]

Yeah, if it's a real fire you put it out real fast or you don't bother putting it out, especially in a fiberglass boat.

I don't know how much more "peril" you can be in beyond a fire. And that's the definition of "salvage" - voluntary aid rendered that saves the vessel from the (otherwise) result of actual peril.

If you're the master and on board you can refuse the assistance. If you accept it (either constructively or otherwise, including by not being there to refuse 'cause you abandoned the vessel!) then the salvor has a claim, which is typically 20% of the saved value (with the amount subject to adjudication by an admiralty court.)

There are lots of abuses (and attempted abuses) of this area of the law, but this particular incident doesn't sound like one. The boat was on fire, the master attempted to extinguish it but failed, and the commercial operator showed up and succeeded in putting it out. But for him, it would have burned to the waterline, so there you have it.....

 

[rsmith]

Yeah, if it's a real fire you put it out real fast or you don't bother putting it out, especially in a fiberglass boat.

I don't know how much more "peril" you can be in beyond a fire. And that's the definition of "salvage" - voluntary aid rendered that saves the vessel from the (otherwise) result of actual peril.

If you're the master and on board you can refuse the assistance. If you accept it (either constructively or otherwise, including by not being there to refuse 'cause you abandoned the vessel!) then the salvor has a claim, which is typically 20% of the saved value (with the amount subject to adjudication by an admiralty court.)

There are lots of abuses (and attempted abuses) of this area of the law, but this particular incident doesn't sound like one. The boat was on fire, the master attempted to extinguish it but failed, and the commercial operator showed up and succeeded in putting it out. But for him, it would have burned to the waterline, so there you have it.....

I believe the salvor must put themselves in peril. Not the peril of the one in distress. Or the gravity of the incident its self.
Makes no diff if your insured or not the claim is against the vessel. Its not like a injured party. Its more like a mechanics lien.

 

[Boatnut]

From the way I read it, it sounds like the salvage or towing company did not put out the fire. FWI, if you want to give someone a tow for whatever reason, make sure you have them toss you the line do not toss one of your lines to them. If you toss them a line you are responsible for their boat and safety. Per admirility law, as taught in the captains courses. The salvage vessel snagging a prop I doubt will have any claim. In this case the boat didn't sink, and with the CG present, and on board should help the owner. I don't think BUS operator or Tow Boat US operater will fine any claim. An independent might be another matter.

 

[Genesis]

Rsmith, putting out a fire most certainly does involve the taking of considerable levels of personal risk.

Boatnut, if the alleged "potential salvor" did not extinguish the blaze, then their assistance was not material to the outcome, and they likely have no claim that will stand up. I read it differently, and that's a critical point - you have to be the one (or ones) who mitigate (or avoid) the loss that would otherwise occur due to the peril.

 

[Boatnut]

Rsmith, putting out a fire most certainly does involve the taking of considerable levels of personal risk.

Boatnut, if the alleged "potential salvor" did not extinguish the blaze, then their assistance was not material to the outcome, and they likely have no claim that will stand up. I read it differently, and that's a critical point - you have to be the one (or ones) who mitigate (or avoid) the loss that would otherwise occur due to the peril.

Other than practically parapharising what I just said, what you and I think means nada. I just don't get the point of your response to my opinion.