Rudder Bearings?

[ThirdHatt]

I have read many previous threads on repacking rudders and replacing bearings. I can move both of my rudders by hand under the boat and they have what I am sure is too much play. Now is the time to deal with it since we're out of the water.

Some say that there are no bearings (?) and others say that there are bearings and that they are the same as the shaft bearings but half the length. If there are no bearings, what do you do about the extra play? Just repack and see if that helps the looseness? That doesn't sound right. The bedding is fine and they do not leak, but they feel loose from the bottom.

Suggestions/clarificantions anyone??

 

[luckydave215]

My 60C has half length cutlass bearings just above the "hull line".
They're a pita to get out, and must be removed from the bottom after the rudder(s) are removed. It takes a custom made extra long punch from the top, (they're up against a blind shoulder) and you'll probably have to saw a slot through the bearing vertically with a sawzall or similar to losen the grip in the bore. It's not real easy....be patient.
If you drop the rudders and don't see cutlass bearings, clean the area, you might be surprized, they fill up with gunk and hide!
I couldn't say if your boat is the exact same setup, but we're talking about classic Hatts, right?
My guess is you'll find the same thing.

 

[ThirdHatt]

Thanks LuckyDave, that's what I would expect to find. What confused me was that in researching this topic on this site, there are conflicting reports of some having a 1/2 length cutlass and others having none(?) at all. I have repacked my share of shaft logs and replaced many cutlass bearings over the years, but I have never had the pleasure of replacing a rudder bearing. It's time to dive into it next week, so I thought I would post here to see if there was a consensus of opinions.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Did you read that thread where Doug Shuman replaced his rudder bearings last winter? It had some good pictures. I think this is it:

http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2347&highlight=rudder

 

[Nonchalant1]

There are definitely bearings and they are definitely half of a cutlass bearing. Call Sams and they'll sell you a cutlass bearing and cut it in half. My thread showed how to get it out with pictures and how I put the new ones in with a hydraulic jack. However, the trick of putting the new ones in a freezer overnight first is really the best way to install them.

Repacking will not help if they're loose. The loose shaft wobbling in the bearing will just loosen up the packing quickly because packing is only made to seal a shaft that turns exactly on its axis, not one that can move laterally. Also check your rudder table bearings. These are the big bushings at the top of the rudder and the bushing flange bolts can become loose, allowing to rudder to move at the top end which also wears out the bearing and packing. On mine, the rudder table end has the clamping assembly that holds the rudder up. Gotta have something or somebody outside to prevent them from dropping onto the hard.

Good Luck,

Doug Shuman

 

[ThirdHatt]

I read through many previous rudder-related posts before starting this thread, especially your excellent narrative and pics Doug and also Murray's (first230sl) because his boat is a '71 58YF and mine is a '72 58YF.

I'll dig into the rudders next week along with replacing exhaust hose, installing new Slane swim platform, etc, etc, etc!

 

[bobk]

I found one rudder had some play on my 48MY. The mech changed the triangle plate (I think it was called) and it made a great improvement. This is probably the same as the table bearing described earlier.

Bob

 

[mopester]

I did it the stupid way!! I took my whole assembly out. Mine were so bad and loose that at one point i put new packing in while an equivalnt to niagra falls was flowing in (what it seamed like when i took out the packing in the water) . It was shot two days later. thats when i decided to replace. Of course i dropped the worst one first and it had no rubber left so i thought it needed to be replaced or boored and sleeved/shimmed at a machine shop. So i took the whole thing out. I took the second one out and found that there was a regular cutlass bearing in it.Then i cut a what was left of the rubber so i could then cut the brass sleeve with a long saws all blade, . I Still couldnt tap it out so i sprayed it with penetrating oil and through some light heat to it on the out side. then it poped right out using the persuader and a brass drift. Iused emory on the inside then froze the new ones and the popped right in.

Mine are still out and i will try to post some pics if you want. the link mentioned above has some pics.

 

[ThirdHatt]

Yep, there are definately cutlass bearings in there because i can see the old rubber hanging down a bit out of the rudder port. I'll get a new cutlass coming while I drop the rudders.

Question: Do the rudder logs use the same size packing as the shaft logs? The shafts are 2" and take a 1/2" packing. I'm going to order the GFO packing as recommended here. I figure one pack for each shaft and one pack for each rudder. Does that sound correct if I plan to put three pieces in each log?

THANKS!

 

[Genesis]

They did on my boat (45C)

 

[ThirdHatt]

Before I can change the bearings I have to be able to get the rudders out! I have loosened the collars, removed the set screws, coated and coated with PB, spread the rudder arm, heated the rudder post/arm and they will not come down. Port will move about 3/4" down and stop.

I don;t know what else could be holding them up. What am I missing here?

 

[Nonchalant1]

There are set screws in the side of the collar that rides on the rudder table. The collar is inbetween the rudder arm and the rudder table. This collar acts as a bearing as it's greased bottom surface rides on the rudder table holding the weight of the rudder as it turns. At least that's the way mine is.

Clean off the sides of that collar and you'll see the set screws, which on mine are unscrewed with an allen wrench.

Doug

 

[luckydave215]

Even after removing all the collars, etc mine needed "persuasion"

 

[ThirdHatt]

Thanks guys. I'll look closer for alan set screws on side of the collar. I sure hope I overlooked those! I did take out two standard flat blade set screws out of the rudder arm(?) and loosened the collar so that it slides up and down easily. It seems that possibly the key is binding the rudder from dropping. Do either of you happen to remember removing the key to drop them? I'm going to try to slide it up and out and see if that helps.

I really did use quite a bit of "persuasion" in my previous attemts by the generous yet respectful use of a mall and a torch. SOMETHING is holding them in there. More set screws, the key, or maybe it's possible that the stuffing box is binding the post enough to resist significant removal efforts. Only time and more trial and error will tell come Monday!

 

[luckydave215]

If you haven't first removed the packing/packing nut, they are acting like a "Chinese finger trap" and holding the rudder stock in place even if the rudder stock doesn't have grooves worn in it from the packing, which it probably does. Pick out ALL the packing first.

 

[mopester]

did you get your rudders out and repacked???
i took some pictures of mine out of the boat from different angles.
i also took some pictures of the rudder,collar,set screws, and plate that the collar rides on.

Just wondering how you made out. I am currently having """discusions""" with the inquiring minds that are telling me to set it back in with 5200 instead of bedding compound.

 

[ThirdHatt]

Mopester, I have not succeeded in dropping the rudders myself so unfortunately I have admitted defeat (knowing my limits) and turned the job over to the yard.

After using a small torch and a mall in my attempts it began to "mushroom" the top of the rudder post a bit, so before I caused any real damage or deformation I stopped.

As per LuckyDave's suggestion, I tried to loosen the packing nut/glands but they are fairly corroded and look as though they haven't had any attention in some time (surprise!). I had no success there either even with generous amounts of PB, a large pipe wrench and a cheater bar.

The one good thing is that I will not have to scuff any more knuckles on this particular project. I am supplying the yard with GFO packing to re-pack the rudders. Hopefully they will not need service again for a VERY long time!

Thanks to all who offered suggestions. They are greatly appreciated!

 

[yachtsmanbill]

WTF??? Pull the whole rudder post out the bottom and work on the bench like a civilized butcher !! Four bolts and your home free. You need to rebed them after 30 years anyway ws

 

[Nonchalant1]

You can't get the rudder post out unless you can get the arm off, which he can't. The rudder port does not hold the rudder post at all. It just acts as a bushing. If you can't see to locate any remaining setscrews, I would stick a digital camera down around there and blow up the pictures to view it better.

Here's what mine looks like. I can hardly see in there well, but I can hold a camera down close and let the flash light it up. You can see the one big bolt on the top of the rudder arm that holds the key into the keyway. You can also see one of the two allen wrench type setscrews on the collar underneath the rudder arm.

When I removed the one keyslot bolt and the two setscrews in the lower collar, the rudder dropped out easily.

Doug Shuman

 

[MikeP]

GFO is great - I am a convert to it myself, not originally being a believer but trying it based on recommendations on this site. Now, after a season of completely dry bilges I'm convinced of it's value. But for the rudder application it's unnecessary. There is no rotation to generate heat/require the water lubrication/dripping that conventional packing needs on a prop shaft. Obviously if you're buying GFO packing anyway for the shaft or for spare or whatever, the additional cost is certainly not an issue but if you happen to have conventional packing laying around the boat, just use that. Tighten the box 'till it doesn't leak and forget about it. It'll work as well as GFO for this.

Pretty bonding strap!