Recert CO2 Fire System vs. New stand-alone Halon-type systems???

[steve940]

Happy New Year to all...

Like most of us, I have the original Hatteras CO2 fire suppression system. In my case, a 56MY, a CO2 bottle in one of my ER's that supplies both ER's and the Gen Room and simultaneously cuts off the engines (otherwise engines just suck out the gas and fire could/would reignite)...

What is the approximate required frequency and cost of recertifying the system so that the insurance company and surveyors are "happy"?

How often do the CO2 bottles have to be pressure tested out of the boat?

Do stand-alone, Halon-type units need to be recertified on a regular basis for insurance purposes?

Who make the best stand-alone units (would need one for each ER and one for the generator room) that have an available engine cut off switch???

What are your experiences???

Thanks in advance,

Steve

 

[MikeP]

CO2 is just weighed for "certification" if the bottle weighs the correct charged amount, that's it. On a non-commercial boat YOU can weigh the bottle and sign your cert card.

I would not consider replacing a properly working CO2 system. Current fire systems are not better, just more "global warming" friendly. BUt you should go through the system and check the automatic triggers to be sure they function properly. There were threads on this here a few years back covering how to do that if you are interested. A search should turn up the info.

FWIW a CO2 system being triggered on a 53MY sounds, according to the PO of our boat who had his triggered twice by grandchildren pulling the manual handle, like an airliner is landing/thrust reversing ON the boat.

 

[rwetherington]

the system that you have on your boat is as good as they come. do not be led to believe that it will shut the engines down electricaly. when it discharges it only triggers a switch that sets the alarm off and breaks the circut so that engines can not restart without being reset. the CO2 is what shuts the engine down. As far as testing the system the bottle should be weighed and every ten years rolled and tumbled to check the bottle. the system needs to be disconeected every two years and have all the sensor and pressure switches check. you do not want to install a Halon system as they are no longer avaiable because of the harm it does to our earth (goverment has brought all the Halon up) I would call a good fire ext. company or make sure that the boat yard knows what they are doing. if you are in our area we can do it for you. we do about 15 a year.

 

[Jaxfishgyd]

I set mine off by accident a few years ago.. Scared the crap out of me !!!
They came out and refilled it and checked all the triggers-all pasted.
You figure the bottle was installed in 1973 and I set it off in 2005...
And all I had to do is "air out" the E.R. Much easier than what's required with the new systems

 

[StratPlan61]

When I had mine recertified last time, the fire extinguisher serviceman told me the bottles must be taken out, inspected, pressure checked every 12 years. This includes rust inspection, repainting, etc. I think I paid about $1k for this service for both bottles, removal, servicing, reinstall.

Steve, are you certain there isn't a separate smaller CO2 bottle for your genny room? I have a large bottle for the 2 ERs and a smaller bottle for the genny room, all factory installed by Hatteras.

 

[rwetherington]

there is only one bottle on this model with CO2 cost to check system last time we did one was about $600.00

 

[GJH]

Roger, I may be calling you to set up an appointment. I check the hand held units myself, but need new tags on the CO2 systems. My 56MY does have a separate system in the genset room. Maybe added on later? Looks just like a mini version of the big one in the starboard ER.

 

[Genesis]

Compressed-gas cylinders are supposed to be recertified by hydrotest on a fixed schedule. The cylinder is placed in a water bath and checked for expansion under the test pressure, and also for permanent deformation. If it fails it is forcibly removed from service (they "XX" out the hydro info and nobody will fill it.)

This is rather important, especially in a corrosive environment (which a boat is.) If that cylinder lets go you're going to be EXTREMELY unhappy (like destroyed and possibly sunk boat) - it's a literal bomb in terms of stored energy.

CO2 systems are dramatically superior in terms of firefighting compared to anything else. The current replacement is FE-241 which requires electrical shutdowns for the engines as diesels will "eat" it and keep right on running, and the fire is quite happy to continue burning with the agent all burned up and exhausted out the pipe! If the fire is electrical in origin you're screwed as the shutdown may not work.

Knowing what I know now I would never replace a CO2 system with something else unless it was totally trashed. The cylinder is heavy, large, and a pain in the butt but they're entirely mechanical, require no electrical anything, and shut the engines down on their own, plus they're the best at putting out fuel and dry fires, and no worse than anything else on electrical blazes.

Just don't be in a compartment when they go off. Not only are they ridiculously loud but visibility instantly goes to near-zero due to fogging and carbon-dioxide ice crystal formation, and of course CO2 will suffocate you quite nicely as well as suffocating the fire.

BTW Hatteras for a long time delivered their boats with a handheld halon extinguisher - Gigabite had an OEM one on board. If you have one, KEEP IT. It's EXCELLENT and while you can't refill it, so long as the gauge is green it's good, and since it's a gaseous agent as opposed to dry chemical there's no issue with the propellant leaking out while the agent is still inside. If you ever actually need to put a real fire out on board and have one of those things, grab it first.

 

[rsmith]

I just had mine done by the local fire equipt co with hydro was $250

 

[magnawake]

I need to have mine Hydro'd and refilled. I got a quote from a place (if I brought them the bottle, 35lb.Co2, actually weighs 118 total) for $160. However, they reinstall, and check the engine cutt off switches for another $120. So $280 might get the job done.

 

[Genesis]

The hydro is cheap. The refill is cheap too. The money is in the labor to get it out of there without setting it off (do it in the right order when you take the firing mechanism off and BE CAREFUL!) and re-installing it - the bottle is heavy.

I typically have a couple of "K" or "T" size bottles in my garage full of oxygen (diving use); they're beasts to move other than by tipping them up and rolling them on their bottoms; I keep them chained to a handtruck and then chain that to a solid support when they're not in use so they can't tip over.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I get the same size CO2 bottles for my Fountain soda machine as we have on the boat. They refill them for $55 each. If I wanted a new one on the boat, I could just swap with one from the gas station and then use the one from the boat to power the pop machine. The problem would be actually getting it in and out of the boat.

 

[ncfathom]

To Magnawake; I see your comments re: CO2 check and fill. We are also in Southport and would like to get our system checked this spring. Would you pass on the name of the company that you got your quote from? By the way, we are on the boat every other weekend from about may through october and intermitantly the rest of the time. Would love to share a beverage of choice sometime.

 

[magnawake]

To Magnawake; I see your comments re: CO2 check and fill. We are also in Southport and would like to get our system checked this spring. Would you pass on the name of the company that you got your quote from? By the way, we are on the boat every other weekend from about may through october and intermitantly the rest of the time. Would love to share a beverage of choice sometime.

Hey Fathom, Yes, I would be glad to pass the info along. I have a name of a guy on Oak Island to check the fire extinguishers, but for the big Co2 in the ER will have to go to Wilmington for the Hyro. I am at Deep point Marina, but would enjoy meeting you. My wife and I eat at PJ's all the time at Southport marina which I think is where you are located. Hey you might as well come on down in the winter too.

 

[REBrueckner]

Use caution in an engine or genny room if a C02 system has been activated. One of the reasons for discontinuing C02 systems is they can kill people...no oxygen just C02 possible so you can't breathe. But the good part is that your engine can't run without oxygen either, so it may well shut down. And if a fire IS snuffed out, there is no residue to clean up nor worry with a C02 system. All in all, a system as noted that is hard to beat.

 

[flydixie1415]

We just had ours check 2 weeks ago and the charge was $935.00. That was removing them and checking them bringing them and reinstalling them.. We where told at the time that they need to be checked every 6 months. HA!.

We bought the boat 7 years ago in Fort Lauderdale and had a new tank put in the gennny room and the takes checked and I think it was around 600.00 something then. We did find out tho that the one in the ginny room was NEVER hooked up to the system. So much for hiring the professionals.

Boat U.S. required us to do this for the renewal of insurance premiums. We have a 56 motoryacht too.

 

[REBrueckner]

So when you guys have your C02 system checked, what has been found/ Has anyone found anything wrong?

When I bought my 48 YF, instead of fussing with the C02 and paying outageous fees for too frequent checks, I left it in place and bought a new HALON system as double insurance....

And now that I think about it, that big ole C02 on the portside was another reason my Hatt listed slightly to port...forgot all about that thing.

 

[magnawake]

I need to have mine Hydro'd and refilled. I got a quote from a place (if I brought them the bottle, 35lb.Co2, actually weighs 118 total) for $160. However, they reinstall, and check the engine cutt off switches for another $120. So $280 might get the job done.

Ok, I just got another estimate. The fire guy is coming friday to remove the bottle, take it with him, do all checks, refill, etc,etc, then reinstall it, check all cutt offs, switches etc, for $340.00 out door and back in the door so to speak. I figured since I'm on night shift right now and nobody to help me wrestle that thing out by my self. Heck, I dont even know I might get trapped in the ER with CO2 blowing on accident. And, this 43' MY is very small in the ER.

 

[magnawake]

So when you guys have your C02 system checked, what has been found/ Has anyone found anything wrong?

When I bought my 48 YF, instead of fussing with the C02 and paying outageous fees for too frequent checks, I left it in place and bought a new HALON system as double insurance....

And now that I think about it, that big ole C02 on the portside was another reason my Hatt listed slightly to port...forgot all about that thing.

Rob, On a 43' vessel like mine, there's not even a requirement for a fire suppression system. However, the surveyor listed it on the survey, so the insurance Co. wants to see it in working order. Ususally, if you have any equipment onboard it needs to be working or remove it. But, thats one of the big things the insurance Co. look for safety, is the automatic fire suppression systems. I guess there is a saftey factor in having it, but it has to be maintained. From everything I can gather, the bottle needs to be weighted every year, then hydro'd every 12 years. Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong. Everybody I talk to gives me different answers.

 

[MikeP]

I know this will sound like a copout and it's nice to get answers on a site like this but when you are asking about regulations, it's best to go to the people responsible for enforcing the regulations and research/ask them. All the info re these systems and the requirements are available from the USCG and other sites.

An organization that is often referred to is the ABYC http://www.abycinc.org/ ABYC does NOT regulate anything, they just recommend. Their recommendations are very good but they have NO regulatory authority. But if a surveyor notes a "safety" item, regardless of how inane or incorrect and whether based on USCG, ABYC, or his/her own opinion, the insurance company will require that you "address" those items; the insurance co will not check any regulations themselves.

It may take you a bit of time to research/navigate through the USCG references but then you will have the CORRECT information, not opinions. Also, remember that the USCG will specify minimum requirements. It may be better to exceed those requirements BUT you cannot be cited as long as you meet the minimum. Don't confuse somebody's recommendations or suggestions - though they may be good - with requirements.

Essentially, a pleasure boat from 40-65 feet has to have three B-I type OR one B-I type PLUS one B-II type approved portable fire extinguishers. IF the boat has a fixed system, that system replaces ONE of the B1s. NOTE that a fixed system is NOT required. BUT a USCG check of your boat will not "allow" the fixed system if it does not have a current entry on the tag.

The question that commonly comes up is re any "requirement" to have a CO2 or Halon system checked by a professional periodically on a pleasure boat. I know what I do but the answer is... look it up, don't listen to anybody here.