Question on MAN's

[Capt K]

OK, guys, Karl and a few others have made some comments about MAN's not being their first choice (if any) in engines. I am happy with my 45 year old Dietroits but a good boating friend of mine is seriously looking at a boat (not a Hatt) that has MAN's. I told him that I do not know too much about them but would get some clearer feedback for him.

There is obviously a lot of great info and experience here. That is why the comments caught my eye but I had no reason to question them until now. Any info, personal experience, opinions, etc would be appreciated. I will be cruising a lot with this person and his new boat and I don't want my 45 year old 10 knot boat to be slowed by his 26 knot boat if there is a propensity for problems.

As always...THANKS!\

Capt K

 

[Avenger]

Well....

They're high-performance engines, wringing a lot of horsepower from a relatively small engine, so if they're pushed hard for long periods POP-goes-the-diesel! Parts are about as expensive as they can get. I know the V-12's idle on only six cylinders and they're still notorious smokers when cold, and they have four turbochargers which becomes an expensive prospect if they need doing. Maybe if you can tell me which particular MAN we're talking about I can give you some more specifics. I know a MAN authorized technician who does a lot of warranty and other service on them. I can ask him about a specific model for you. One thing he does say is that for the most part even if they have a failure they usually keep running long enough to get home. He mostly tells me of sucked valves and blown turbos, not of rods hanging out. Like most other engines more depends on the operator than anything else. Guys fishing tournaments seem to have the biggest problems, hmmm... Hope this helps.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I know of 2 boats with MANS that have been nothing but problems. One was a newer Viking 50. The guy has had turbo seals replaced several times and even though MAN has updated their design, he keeps having problems (oil going all over the engine room when they fail). The other guy I met had a new Sunseeker 65. He had so many problems with the MANs that he finally called up the dealer and told them to "come get the boat". He was DONE with it! Maybe these are not typical, but I find it interesting that even the so called updated design of the turbo seals failed. Maybe others have had better luck.

 

[AquaNav77]

At one time, around the 1998 to 2000 era, I did hear about catastraphic failures in the V10's by nature of melted pistons. Supposedly they have "cleaned up their act" since then. There used to be a guy that rented a plane towing signs stating how awful his MAN engines were. He had this plane fly over Bahia Mar at the Ft. Lauderdale Boat Shows for a few years and also over the Miami Beach Convention Center at the Miami Boat Shows.
I saw that personally. Very promotional, wouldnt you say?? LOL!!!

Jim

 

[MarioG]

At one time, around the 1998 to 2000 era, I did hear about catastraphic failures in the V10's by nature of melted pistons. Supposedly they have "cleaned up their act" since then. There used to be a guy that rented a plane towing signs stating how awful his MAN engines were. He had this plane fly over Bahia Mar at the Ft. Lauderdale Boat Shows for a few years and also over the Miami Beach Convention Center at the Miami Boat Shows.
I saw that personally. Very promotional, wouldnt you say?? LOL!!!

Jim

I also remember something similar at the Miami boat show a few years ago, this fella was handing out flyers saying "do not buy MAN". went on to explain about piston failures.

 

[Genesis]

I would not own a boat with MANs no matter what the price (even if GIVEN to me; I'd sell it immediately!)

MANs, when running properly, are ok engines. The problem is the parts cost and their history of blowing up.

That they allowed a guy to print up flyers bashing them for years and fly choppers over boat shows says volumes. If there was nothing to it they could have sued his pants off. But - his flyers actually had photographs of the melted pistons on them! I saw the flyer - it was damning evidence, and not cheap to produce. He had to be real pissed to go to that length.

Its simply a matter of risk. There are US engines (Cummins, Cat, etc) that, while expensive to fix, are not THAT bad when something goes "boom". And with a boat, the risk of a "boom" is always there.

As I think I've related on the forum before a former dock mate of mine runs a 55 Viking with MANs in it. It was purchased either new or very close to it. He reached the 1,000 hour mark and apparently MAN has a required service interval. The turbos required replacement for some reason (out of spec, etc) and the bill came to $10,000 per turbocharger. For the parts.

Now guys, I can buy an entire set of cylinder kits AND both turbos on my 6V92s for that much money, and have enough beer cash left over to fuel my "engine" while I turn the wrenches to put 'em in! Hell, my turbos are about $700 each - as opposed to ten grand.

There is a lot of robbery going on in the marine industry, but IMHO the "Deutchemotor" guys (of all colors) take all three medals in that race, and its not one you want to win.

My standard question list now includes "please itemize the cost for all parts and labor to perform both a major overhaul and top-end job (e.g. heads and turbos) on this engine" - BEFORE I BUY.

With MANs the answer is likely to be "buy a new longblock" on the overhauls.

 

[Capten]

I too have heard a lot of horror stories about MAN-grenades over the last few years. Like Sky, I know of 2 newer Vikings docked next to each other in the marina last summer (48' & 50') that were down all season because of 'common' seal or valve issues. Even though MAN had updates for them and had performed them on each boat, they failed again within a very short period of time. That's pretty concerning to me.

All that said, a lot of MANs are out there and still being installed by some very reputable boat manufacturers. I can remember some years back when the MANs were the hot-lick and it seemed like everyone wanted them.

 

[AquaNav77]

Hey Guys:

Just as a side note, I wonder how this MTU/Detroit Diesel marriage is going to work out now since the company is no longer part of Daimler Chrysler. As you may know, MTU/DD has been sold to a Swedish firm. Headquarters for MTU will remain in Germany, but I often wonder what's over the horizon.

Jim

 

[luckydave215]

I know several of the charter captains in Kona (I fish there a lot) and the boats that have MAN's can't keep them running to save their lives. The parts have to come from Texas, and are killer expensive. They don't run the boats very hard there as the good fishing starts only 100 yards outside of the harbor, and they usually live bait, so trolling is done at 5 knots or less. The "grounds" are only a few miles away, just off the airport, so there isn't much running in any case.
Honokahou harbor is a small one, and everyone knows what's going on with each other.

MAN grenades, indeed.

btw, the favored engines in the islands are either cummins or cats. The parts are usually in stock in Honolulu, and the techs are familiar with them.

 

[Capt K]

Wow, as usual, lots of input. These are 600 hp 2866LE401. The boat is going to be used mostly for pleasure cruising and this guy won't push her too hard. He is good at maintainance and doing what he's supposed to, but he still does not want to buy a problem.

Thanks, again.

K

 

[spartonboat1]

Here and I thought I could post the melted piston horror stories (at one time there were and may still be lengthy posts elsewhere on the Internet about that- try ole Google), plus the MAN-grenade moniker attached by Diesel techs.

You guys don't miss a thing.

Crying shame that the best CEO in the mechanical business, Roger Penske, sold DD after he bought it from GM I think. Probably would remain one of the best diesel lines in the world if he retained DD. He took them to ISO 9000 after he bought them and cleaned up their quality management issues.

 

[Cobra29]

Scary thread for me to read since I own a 46C with MAN's. The same as your friend is looking at, 2866LE401 @ 610 hp. All I can tell you is that I have owned the boat for 2 months and have brought her to Jupiter, FL from Myrtle Beach, SC where I changed the impellers (a PITA), cleaned the intercoolers (filthy) and all fluids. Each raw water pump has 2 impellers in it and the pump has to come off to change them. Half of the vanes on these impellers were missing and the boat ran perfectly, never over 160 F, in spite of this and didn't use a quart of oil. No smoke and ran at 25 k @ 1650 the whole way. I was told to install pyrometers which I have now. Have taken the boat from Jupiter and am on my way to Crystal River, FL for a few months, stopping in St Pete due to weather last weekend and finishing the trip today. My mechanic, a Detroit guy, says these particular motors are a nice package although he doesn't say the same for the 10 cylinders, etc. I have now taken the boat close to 1000 miles without a problem. The kicker is these motors have 7100 hrs on them. Having owned Hatteras for only 2 years, you guys know worlds more about all of these things than I do but I never got this kind of service out of my 692's and I am impressed with these motors so far.

 

[SeaEric]

7100 hours is very impressive on any large H.P. diesel.

I have customers with a pair of v-12 MANs that "melted down" at 1500 hours. They were persistant, and MAN provided a whole bunch of parts, including one new block at no charge. The net result was one new engine and the other having a major and all updates. They had some serious cash out for labor, but big picture, they came out OK. My customer tells me that he is not afraid of MANs anymore, because he now knows what questions to ask, and what maintenence should take place. His education came at a pretty high cost though.

 

[Genesis]

7100 hours doesn't bite, that's for sure.

 

[captddis]

All the people I know who have had the updates, have had good service since. But as stated when you need parts...... I had a friend who had a 50 Bert with the V10s, they were smokey beasts but he did not have any major problems. When I showed him the injection pump and told him it was 18,000.00 , He got scared and sold the boat!
Man and Mtu base engine is pretty much the same, although Man askes more out of theirs.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Just curious, are MAN and MTU base engines built by Mercedes Benz? I remember reading that a while back. I have had excellent service with MB diesels in cars....so have many of my friends.

 

[Capt K]

Well, guys, thanks for all of the feedback. Based on our info and a MAN mechanic that we found out we knew, plus the blueprints and receipts from the two rebuilds, he put in an offer and it was accepted. The boat is a 1996 48' Ocean with the six cylinder MANs pushing 600 hp that most seem to think are less MANgranades than the v10's and v12's.

Thanks, again, and Ed thanks you, too.

Looks like I'll be taking a ride from Palm Gardens, Fl to Ct in the next couple of months.

Capt K

 

[spartonboat1]

Even MB has had its moments with engines, including diesels. The mid-70's 2-piece head, double-overhead cam 6 and 1980's 3.8 v8 mit/single cam chain were problem childs and wore out or burst rapidly. The early 90's S class 3.5L diesels had a problem with "bent connecting" rods. Turns out the head gaskets were leaking and hydrolock the pistons, hence the bent rods.

Anyone can make a "bad" product, but a good engine survey never hurt, i.e. can be very helpful.

 

[Avenger]

When I showed him the injection pump and told him it was 18,000.00 , He got scared and sold the boat!

Why on earth did you tell him that? Any competent fuel injection shop could rebuild that thing for under $5K, probably closer to 3. It's the same pump as a Mack, Cummins B and C series, many Volvos and hoardes of others, it's just twice as long. Of course, if he traded the Bert for a Hatt, then you did him a favor.


Capt K,

I haven't heard from the M-A-N tech yet, but it's the off season up here and he may be away. The specs say the engine is 731 cu. in. so at 610 HP it's not exceeding the 1 HP per cu. in. rule. I also don't recall him saying much about the 6 cyl engines. It's mostly the 10s and 12s that seem to have the problems. If he has any warnings for you I'll post them, but since you've already got a deposit on the boat it's a moot point. However, I don't think your buddy needs to worry. Good luck with it!

 

[captddis]

Actually even though he blamed it on me scaring him, he got a unsolicited offer on the boat and sold it. He bought a new boat every year and kept me busy outfitting all of them. I also think the smoke turned him off and he went back to Detroits.