Prepping for painting ?s

[Rickysa]

Probably no-brainer questions, but having not painted with Imron before, I'd like to throw them out there.....I'll be painting the cockpit & flybridge soles/sides and gunnels...rolling, not spraying.

1. For the soles, do I just sand through the existing non-skid, or keep going to remove all paint?....how smooth (final grit?)

2. For smooth surfaces, is the sanding to just roughen the old paint for adhesion or does all the old paint need to be removed...and again...how smooth (final grit?)

Many thanks for any and all input....

Rick

 

[34Hatt]

but having not painted with Imron before, I'd like to throw them out there.....I'll be painting the cockpit & flybridge soles/sides and gunnels...rolling, not spraying.

First did something change with Imron last I knew it could not be rolled!!!
All surface's would be done to the same grit and are you priming??? Usally before paint it would be 240 to 320 grit depends on paint and how many coats and if its being done by da or hand.

 

[Scott Mather]

I have rolled the non skid areas a couple of times with Imron and it worked great. Roller actually provided a good non slip texture.

 

[67hat34c]

regarding sanding through old paint. only needs to be done if there is currently an adhesion problem. you dont need to remove all the old non skid. can also sand that area with roughher paper, 60g.

shiny surfaces should be washed with detergent first then sanded, you can work contaminants into the surface with sand paper. sand as dan says 220g with a da or 320 grit hand sand. i found 220g hand sand leaves too much media. you should be using an epoxy primer before top coat. if you are using imron then dupont has a primer.

 

[Rickysa]

Thanks for the input....I have the primer and will be using a da sander...so 220 grit for the smooth surfaces and probably have to sand through the non-skid as the reason for painting is 20yr-old grime ground deep in it that hasn't given up to any cleaner or amount of elbow grease.

 

[34Hatt]

I have rolled the non skid areas a couple of times with Imron and it worked great. Roller actually provided a good non slip texture.

Yeah but have you tried on smooth question is how well it will flow out that what separate's the good brushing paints from the others.

 

[MikeP]

I've shot a ton of Imron (probably literally!) and have some observations:

1. If you are expecting to get the kind of finish Imron is famous for without spraying, you won't get it. If that's OK, fine. I've seen one boat - a Mainship 36 - that was hand painted (not sprayed) with Imron. Frankly, it looked terrible - lots of runs and assorted bad finish work. The guy had the boat for sale and advertised it as "new Imron finish." All I could see was a HUGE amount of work trying to correct the appearance.

2. Re removing the old finish - if you don't, then it will be the weak link. You can Imron over an old finish but to gain the toughness and durability of Imron, it needs to be applied over the bare surface, prepped with the appropriate primer. I used to tell people that insisted I spray Imron over old paint, "Don't tell anybody I did it and don't tell them it's Imron."

3. If you don't like the results, you are screwed! It ain't like spraying lacquer which is the world's easiest finish to work with and correct. Once Imron has hardened, It is extremely tough and difficult to remove or sand - that's the whole point.

4. This should have been the first point - Imron fumes are VERY toxic. You MUST wear a toxic chemical mask, NOT a dust mask. If you can smell the Imron while wearing the mask, the mask is not acceptable. This applies anytime Imron is in an open container - not just when spraying

Before I would paint Imron with a roller/brush or have someone do it, I would try it on a 4x8 sheet of plywood and see if it's possible to get the depth, gloss, and smoothness that as acceptable to you. You need to see it on a fair sized flat surface and a 4x8 sheet of plywood (or whatever) is a reasonable area to get a good idea of how it will look. Anything smaller would not be representative of what is really going to happen.

If you decide to do this, please let us all know how it went! Good Luck

 

[Genesis]

The only SAFE air supply system for spraying two-part paints is a positive-pressure supplied mask with the air intake FAR upwind of the spray location, and/or "canned air" (e.g. large banked storage tanks)

NO ambient air mask will properly filter out enough of the fumes. And, by the way, while the fumes are toxic enough to kill you outright, what's worse is that if they don't they'll likely get you with liver cancer 10 or 20 years hence.

NOT good.

 

[MikeP]

Karl speaks the truth!

I know of one instance where a guy ignored all the safety requirements. He was spraying Imron outdoors with a dust mask figuring he was OK because the wind was blowing the mist away from him (too bad for whoever it was blowing toward!). He collapsed and had to be taken to the hospital. He may have suffered permanent damage but we couldn't tell because he was so weird anyway.

Imron (and it applies to any of the two-part paints, as Karl observed) contains a statement on the label with words to the effect, "For Professional Use Only." This is one of the few such cases where they really aren't kidding. I won't state that you have to be a professional to use it but you have to use it like a professional would with the appropriate safety in mind.

 

[67hat34c]

poor mans fresh air supply.

I had this idea but not sure how it will work but why not get a small shop vac with and attach a 50' 1.25" bildge pump hose to it and duct tape it to your mask, block off the other side. use a hepa filter on the shop vac. you can regulate the pressure by putting holes in the hose near the shop vac. fresh air supply system will run 800.00 or more,as i have been pricing them. You can also buy the fresh air supply mask for under 200 and use the shop vac to supply it. appears the air pump is the main cost of this system.

This system could also be good for when you are cleaning and painting engines. Just a thought.

 

[34Hatt]

Steve I use a fresh air supply I am lucky friend has one and I can use it anytime. The good one's are still a pain the hose is always in the way and your taking it on and off all the time. But my point is it is your life you are protecting so is $800.00 a lot of money and a hose in your way all the time a real problem. I don't think so I think I would not coble up something on my own and trust me I am usally for that if it saves money but life can not be replaced and everything else does not matter. Oh well just trying to keep you around on the forum a little longer .

 

[Rickysa]

Great info as always.....and what I needed to hear...not interested in spending the $ and sweat to have it look like my two-year-old's finger paintings (which it sounds like it would if I did it myself )

What would my other options be that are less toxic and more user friendly (only other "boat paint" I've played with was Awfulgripping an engine bed on another boat...not pretty...not blaming the paint, just the painter )

 

[Paul45c]

I just wanted to be clear -- this thread started out with a question on prepping for roll/tip painting; does anybody think you still need the respirator systems if you're NOT spraying? I've watched several pro brush painters and haven't seen them wear anything.

-- Paul

 

[Genesis]

I would not use any 2-part paint without a positive-pressure air feed no matter how I was applying it.

But that's me.

 

[34Hatt]

I would not use any 2-part paint without a positive-pressure air feed no matter how I was applying it.

That is the only way to be SAFE.

But I would not even open a can of a two part with out a proper respirator and that's why a lot of the pro's die early. Better Safe then Sorry.

As for which one's are easier Sterling is much more forgiving then Awlgrip for brushing the stuff flows the best but will not hold a shine as long as Awlgrip and if you are in the South like Fl 4 years and it will dull. Any paint you chose READ the application guide over and over follow their instruction and your job will be a better one for sure!

 

[Genesis]

Realize that in Florida you're going to end up with dull paint in 5-10 years regardless. Believe it or not, once it starts to chalk, you can actually WAX it (Awlcare doesn't work once it starts chalking.....) and its just like Gelcoat in that regard. A power buffer works pretty well I've found...... and while its a lot of work to wax a 45C, its a hell of a lot cheaper than a $40,000 paint job that is only good for 5 years - that's about $10k/year for paint on an amortized basis!

 

[Paul45c]

As for which one's are easier Sterling is much more forgiving then Awlgrip for brushing the stuff flows the best but will not hold a shine as long as Awlgrip and if you are in the South like Fl 4 years and it will dull. Any paint you chose READ the application guide over and over follow their instruction and your job will be a better one for sure!

FWIW, my Sterling job is about 3 yrs. old and looking as good as when they painted it. All I've done so far is occasionally hit it very lightly with Finesse-It to get out any stains. I'm in South Florida. The only parts of the boat that aren't Sterling as the waterline boot stripe, the upper hull stripe, and the upper house stripe just below the venturi screen. My painter couldn't find the color blue I wanted in Sterling, so he had to go with Awlgrip. Those are unfortunately the only parts of the boat that show any brushmarks. It's possible the Awlgrip is more durable than Sterling, since these stripes are dark navy blue and still looking as good and shiny as the offwhite on the rest of the boat. I guess I really won't know until either starts fading.

My painter said to expect everything to look very good through about 5 yrs., and then depending on how fussy I am and how much effort I'm willing to expend to prolong the finish, it could stay looking pretty good for another few years after that. And the biggest surprise to me and with his longevity forecast in mind, he implored me not to use wax. His feeling is you use a light compound like Finesse-It or similar product when you're starting to lose that wet-look shine, but that most waxes are just big dirt traps. I don't know...could be feathering his own nest, but he sure seemed like a straight shooter, and he's definitely not hurting for business. I did have the hull buffed out with wax for the first time on a recent haulout. I'll see how that does.

-- Paul

 

[Rickysa]

As for which one's are easier Sterling is much more forgiving then Awlgrip for brushing the stuff flows the best but will not hold a shine as long as Awlgrip and if you are in the South like Fl 4 years and it will dull.

Since I'm doing non-skid, and planning to repaint the boat down the road, longevity and shine aren't as big a concern...just wanting to "pretty up" the cockpit a bit now that all the engine work has been done.

...and Karl, I sure wish you'd of decided to sell last summer!

Rick

 

[Genesis]

Oh, here's a hint on waxing "chalking" Awlgrip.... (don't ask me how I figured all this stuff out.... it can be a LOT harder than it needs to be if done wrong!)

1. DO NOT compound it. No, I didn't make that mistake, but I know someone who did. BAD BAD BAD news if you do that.

2. Use Collinite PASTE Fleetwax. All the others suck to one degree or another; if you MUST use a liquid because you're lazy then the Collinite is probably the best of the bad choices.

3. Use a POWER BUFFER. They're not expensive. You CANNOT get nearly as good results attempting to do this by hand, no matter how much work you put into it.

The technique I found works BEST is as follows.

1. Wash the area you are about to wax with a good detergent and allow to dry.
2. Apply about a 2x2' area of wax.
3. While STILL WET (DO NOT wait for it to haze!), using a terry bonnet, go over the area with the power buffer. Continue to buff until it shines up.
4. If the area was BADLY chalked up it will not shine up real well. Apply a SECOND coat of wax and do the same as in (3); again, DO NOT WAIT for it to haze. It will shine up nicely.
5. Move to the next section and repeat.
6. Keep a clean bonnet on the buffer. You're going to need a lot of them; they can be washed and re-used (in the washing machine) but you're still going to have to change them on the buffer every 15-30 minutes. When they start to load up they lose their effectiveness and your time-to-buff a section will go WAY up. I've found the microfiber bonnets aren't worth a damn in this application (they work well on cars, but not on boats for some reason)

DO NOT try to get greedy with the amount of hull you are working with at a given time. Trust me on this - if the wax starts to dry up before you buff it you're in for an absolutely outrageous amount of work trying to buff it out.

Basically what I think you're doing (from what I can figure out) is using the wax as a VERY fine buffing compound plus sealer. It works - but like all wax jobs will wear off and have to be re-done.

I did the entire hull from the boot stripe up to the rubrail when I was out this spring; took me two man-days. The topsides are about 75% done and will be finished next week. While this is a lot of work its a HELL of a lot cheaper than having someone come and repaint the boat. To be honest its not as good a finish as a repaint either, but still - it looks darn nice.

I don't know why it works this way - for most other uses (e.g. gelcoat) you would want the wax to haze first - but if you do that in this case you'll find that it won't buff out nicely and you'll have to lay down a second coat of wax, using the moisture in the second coat to "re-soften" the first before it will buff up.

Finesse-It and other similar products are polymers. These will produce a nice shine UNTIL they get oxidized, then they will streak and mottle in a way that will horrify you. They're also nearly impossible to remove once you start using them, so once you start with them you're stuck with that line of product, and some react badly with other products you may try in the future.

As for dirt, yes, dirt will "sit" on a waxed surface where it won't on a non-waxed one. But it can be washed off easily too - just use a mild detergent (not something that will strip the wax!) and lots of water. Part of why you see the dirt is that the original surface has more shine - it shows up more!

 

[67hat34c]

regarding fumes, awlgrip web site says to wear respirator even while paint is drying, only need fresh air supply while applying either roll or spray.

on my boat we have decided to finish prep work and then let someone else spray it. it was very difficult to find someone. last guy wanted 500/ foot to paint from rub rail up and that is with me doing most of the rough prep and that is open air painting cant afford that at this time so I kept looking.

Found someone who quoted base price of 250/ft open air painting but could never get him to come up and look. I then found a guy in Daytona in a small marina that has a wet paint shed. Went to look and it appears to be good. Have not looked at his work yet but plan to in the next week. I will let you all know what I find and what we think after the work is done. He is just starting another boat so he cant get to me for another month but he is willing to let us bring her up and store under cover and allow us to keep prepping and even work with him when he starts. I am not expecting a 1k/foot quality job but I believe it will look very good, better than roll and tip.

Let me run this by the group, we are installing new side windows. , plan to pull old ones out when we bring her under cover, will mask off from inside and prep the opening. What would be best prep for the opening. We are not using screws to hold the fram in . clamping in place and using 5200. Yes in know it will be hard to remove again but dont see the need, old ones were in for 39 yrs this as of this week, it is her birthday this week. My concern is gel coat is old and the black primer between gel and fiberglass is questioable. What would be the best prep. Grind down to glass and epoxy coat? or grind down to glass and just prep with Awlgrip primer 545.

I was considering priming bare fiberglass with 545 then install the windows then top coat the boat with windows masked off.