Overboard Head Discharge

[DCMY #92]

What is currently considered a "legal" means in Florida of disabling a head or waste holding tank overboard discharge valve? Will removing the through hull handle do?

 

[Angela]

It is my understanding that removing the handle is sufficient with the valve in the closed-to-overboard-discharge. If the handle can be locked, that will suffice, also. If the potty is in the open position or does not have a holding tank (like some sport fishboat are), I also understand that locking the door to the head so that no one can enter it is also sufficient when in a no-discharge area.

 

[Boatsb]

What is currently considered a "legal" means in Florida of disabling a head or waste holding tank overboard discharge valve? Will removing the through hull handle do?

Yes as long as it is not accessible. Also make sure all the valves in the line from the head to the discharge are locked or closed without handles or the manatee huggers may still give you a hard time.

I was warned by a friend that a standard nylon wire tie is not enough that it has to be metal. That copper wire for rigging balyhoo is metal so there.

 

[Canuck Dennis]

Don't forget the macerator switch....I changed mine to a Key operated and keep the key in the master S.R. the switch is in the fwd head, this does qualify according to CC regs.

 

[Pascal]

Regulations state that the sea cock needs to be closed and the handle removed. There is nothing about the handle not being accessible; I ve been boarded twice and having the handle next to the seacock but off the shaft was not a problem

A key switch is fine as long as the key is off

Zip ties are acceptable as well, never heard any evidence to the contrary. I don't have the link handy but I m pretty sure the uscg site mentions zip ties as being acceptable

Note that the rules are the same nationwide

 

[rsmith]

Enforcement of any rule or regulation depends on the enforcer. They are always right even when their wrong.

 

[Boatsb]

Regulations state that the sea cock needs to be closed and the handle removed. There is nothing about the handle not being accessible; I ve been boarded twice and having the handle next to the seacock but off the shaft was not a problem

A key switch is fine as long as the key is off

Zip ties are acceptable as well, never heard any evidence to the contrary. I don't have the link handy but I m pretty sure the uscg site mentions zip ties as being acceptable

Note that the rules are the same nationwide

Would you mind publishing that information for the 20 something year old who interprets it differently? Along with your information and a promise to pay the fines.

we were told by the FWC enforcers a key in a lock is not locked. Ties must have metal and handles can not be handy in the compartment for the overboard discharge. Bringing up the question of if a valve needs to closed in a hurry will not help if the valve was supposed to be closed anyway. This is not the coast guard. It is a state agency and they write their own rules.

 

[J's Dream]

From the USCG website: http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg5213/msd.asp
under "additional information"

No discharge zone.
While operating a vessel in an EPA designated no discharge zone, flow-through devices are only permitted if adequately secured to prevent discharges of all treated and untreated sewage. For example, closing the seacock and padlocking, using a non-releasable wire tie, or removing the seacock handle are considered to be sufficient in most cases. For short voyages, locking the door to the head with a padlock or a door handle key lock is another acceptable method. For vessels that routinely operate in no discharge zones a Type III MSD is recommended. For more information see 33 CFR 159.7 and 40 CFR Part 140.


From Florida's DEP website: http://www.dep.state.fl.us/cleanmarina/cva/boater_faq.htm

What are the guidelines for “Y-valves”?
Under federal law, if a boat has a “Y” valve allowing direct overboard discharge of untreated waste, it must be closed while operating in all inland and coastal waters. It is suggested you use a non-releasable wire tie, lock, or remove the valve handle to secure the device. When you are more than three miles offshore in the ocean, the “Y” valve may be open allowing direct discharge overboard.





Just because one of these law enforcement guys says its so, doesn't mean it is. Nowhere does it say anything about metal in the wire tie.

 

[Boatsb]

Jason the guy on my boat giving me the ticket does not care what it says. It's all in how he interprets it at the time. If you beat the ticket in court I can see his next boarding being even less cordial. My point is not the law but the inexperienced people enforcing their version of it making boating problematic.

 

[Pascal]

Would you mind publishing that information for the 20 something year old who interprets it differently? Along with your information and a promise to pay the fines.

we were told by the FWC enforcers a key in a lock is not locked. Ties must have metal and handles can not be handy in the compartment for the overboard discharge. Bringing up the question of if a valve needs to closed in a hurry will not help if the valve was supposed to be closed anyway. This is not the coast guard. It is a state agency and they write their own rules.

well, once again you need to read posts not just glance at them... i never said a "key in a lock is locked"... i said "A key switch is fine as long as the key is off"

big difference, dont' you think?

Jason answered your question by posting the exact text from official sites. If your local FWC officers dont' know the rules, you should print a copy and keep it on board.

my biggest complaint about black water issues is the lack of pump out... this is the real problem and it's not a local problem but one i've encountered all over the east coast.

in the past 10 days i've had to pump out a few times since we've had a large nr of guests on board and everytime has been a headache. From Key West were the pump out boat operated with limited hours and the city marina pump out was closed, to Miami where there was not a single working pump out this week end!

ex... Miami Beach Marina, $4 a ft dockage... they often dock boats in front of the pump out and the hose is too short to reach beyond the docked boat! Bayside the pump out was not working and they do not use the pump out boat in the marina... Rickenbacker, hose too short, fuel dock jammed packed with boats... dinner Key, no suction... No Name Harbor, too shallow for our 6' draft... the list goes on.

so on one hand you have FWC apparently harassing boaters about rules yet nothing is done to make sure boaters can follow the rules.

here at Dinner Key (600 slip city marina) they have a nice pump out boat for the mooring field but they do not pump out boats at the 2 marinas next door, which do not have pump outs.

you dont' have to be a rocket scientist to figure what happens... the waste goes in the water. no big deal in some areas but down here, most of the bay is either state or national park and we swim in the water!

 

[Boatsb]

Hey Pascal read your own damn post. "KEY is off" does not say the key is removed but implies that the key in the key switch is in the off position. I stated what they told me about keyed locks. Take it as you like but that was what they told me during the local marine patrol blitzkrieg.

By the way showing the guys boarding your boat the rules as you interpret them will not get them to see it your way. They are not there because they like you and if you challenge them nothing good usually comes of it. It's better to take it quietly, Admit you may be wrong and deal with it later. Remember they are the ones with the guns and badges. As someone who has been boarded more than once I can tell you they are not patient and looking for your opinions. If you correct them they will get you in the end.

 

[Pascal]

you're right, my statement was ambiguous, I meant that the key is out.

we are not in cuba or some other communist dictatorship here and most of the time if you politely show proof of compliance, incl. a print out of the official rules, the boarding officer will not harass you... if so, then indeed better shut up and go over his head after the incident.

obviously, it may not be worth it since using wire tie or zip is really the same thing and both take some cutter to release.

 

[rsmith]

you're right, my statement was ambiguous, I meant that the key is out.

we are not in cuba or some other communist dictatorship here and most of the time if you politely show proof of compliance, incl. a print out of the official rules, the boarding officer will not harass you... if so, then indeed better shut up and go over his head after the incident.

obviously, it may not be worth it since using wire tie or zip is really the same thing and both take some cutter to release.

we are not in cuba or some other communist dictatorship here

when your in a boat or airplane we are. we have draconian search and seizure laws left to us by the 80's war on drugs.

 

[Boatsb]

After being boarded returning from 200 miles or so offshore coming from the southern Bahamas and heading past Cuba I was boarded by the coast guard. They were very clear about us staying still and quiet until they finished their inspection before even addressing any of the issues they find. They did not discuss anything but did offer us a written report that we could challenge items from at a later time on shore. It made sense as we were not in the best place to challenge their interpretations and they are not the ones to judge our compliance but they were the ones to report the details. It's just like not arguing with the cop on the side of the road. In this case they made a suggestion that was quickly accepted and no problems were noted.


By the way they did mention that we were on their RADAR for days and they waited for us to get closer so they could take a look. Big brother was watching.

 

[Genesis]

I've been boarded a number of times - all the offshore "excursions" have been by the USCG. They've been professional and within the law (which is rather more broad than you might think - look it up.) Never had a problem with them. They do their thing, give you the yellow form on the boarding, and they're gone. Never been cited or "harassed."

The FWC is another matter. Some of their officers are professional, polite, doing their jobs, and again, no problem. Others.... well... some of them can't identify the species of a fish in your box, and they operate their vessels as well as they identify fish species. And that's being polite.

 

[Pascal]

we are not in cuba or some other communist dictatorship here

when your in a boat or airplane we are. we have draconian search and seizure laws left to us by the 80's war on drugs.

true... i remember when a lot of the rules where enacted back in the 80s including enforcing advance notices and the need to park within the painted circles by the customs office when flying in from outside the US, or else. Back then, there were basically no way to call from customs in the USVI or PR from down island... no cell, no sat and few landlines on some islands.

but the rules were pretty clear and if you followed them, didn't raise any red flag they'd do their jobs and nothing more even though back then drug running was a big issue into the VI and PR.

 

[rsmith]

I've been boarded a number of times - all the offshore "excursions" have been by the USCG. They've been professional and within the law (which is rather more broad than you might think - look it up.) Never had a problem with them. They do their thing, give you the yellow form on the boarding, and they're gone. Never been cited or "harassed."

The FWC is another matter. Some of their officers are professional, polite, doing their jobs, and again, no problem. Others.... well... some of them can't identify the species of a fish in your box, and they operate their vessels as well as they identify fish species. And that's being polite.

From what Ive been able to tell you only had your boat for several years and if you've been boarded numerous times I would call that harassment.

 

[rsmith]

true... i remember when a lot of the rules where enacted back in the 80s including enforcing advance notices and the need to park within the painted circles by the customs office when flying in from outside the US, or else. Back then, there were basically no way to call from customs in the USVI or PR from down island... no cell, no sat and few landlines on some islands.

but the rules were pretty clear and if you followed them, didn't raise any red flag they'd do their jobs and nothing more even though back then drug running was a big issue into the VI and PR.

The rules changed last year with pre approved passenger manifests and advanced electronic notification both leaving and entering the country. A recent AOPA article said there were numerous unintended violations last year that resulted in warnings but as of the first of this year customs is going to strict enforcement and severe penaltities.

 

[MikeP]

"or removing the seacock handle are considered to be sufficient in most cases"

I love the "in most cases" part...

Pretty much leaves interpretation open to whatever an officer cares it to mean. BUT OTOH - I have never had any sort of issue with the CG at all so I have nothing to complain about.

 

[Fanfare]

Got boarded by the USCG a few years back and received a citation for having no holding tank. In 1965 Hatteras didn't build them because the MSD laws were seven years in the future. BAD HATTERAS! Although we did not have a holding tank we did have three LectraSan USCG-certified type 1 sewage treatment devices installed, which I requested the boarding officer to note on the citation. I had to appeal to headquarters to have the citation dismissed. So even the Coast Guard can be wrong.

When I reengined I had to remove the guest head LectraSan from the stbd engine room because there was no longer room for it. Put in a 25 gallon plastic holding tank in the generator room but the plumbing to get waste there is a real Rube Goldberg project. It is pretty silly because the LectraSans do a better job of treating waste (maceration, chlorination, disinfection, no, in the words of the regulation, "visible floating solids," which none of us want) than most of the sewer systems of municipalities.

Anyone know if I can use my LectraSans at the Dinner Key Marina when we are there Feb. 19? My 25 gallon holding tank fills up pretty fast.