Outback inverter vs Low shore power voltage

[MikeP]

I relearned the hard way what I learned a few years ago but forgot...

In the Sand Bar I posted re low marina voltage at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime museum marina. But I said that everything had worked out ok when we found a dock showing slightly more power - a shade over 200 instead of 198. But I was wrong, things didn't work out at all but I was not aware of it until I tried to start the engines this morning...nothing but "CLICK."

Here's what I had learned/forgotten and what those using pass-through on the Outback (and maybe other) inverters should be aware of. If you are using pass thru, anything on that circuit goes through the inverter. IF you connect shore power that is below the default input voltage on the outback, the OB will not recognize that there IS any shore power. As a result, the batteries will be used to power whatever is on that circuit and, of course, there will be no battery charging by the Outback.

This happened to me 6-7 years ago at the same marina but somehow that time I recognized the fact immediately that we were on batt power, not shore as far as the inverter was concerned. So, using the Mate, I reset the default voltage for the inverter to a lower level. I do not recall what that level was, but it was lower than the marina voltage. The inverter worked fine after I lowered the voltage setting. Yesterday I totally forgot about that so this AM, the batts were discharged to the point they could not crank the engines.

I started the Genny and, luckily, after only 7-8 minutes there was enough juice in the batts to start the engines. So we are now back at Piney Narrows and all is well. But be aware that LOW shore power may mean you are using battery power when you assume you are not. Again, using the Mate, you can set the Outback's input default voltage to accept the low voltage. However, if you don't check that input voltage, you man not be aware that the inverter/charger has remained in the battery mode.

 

[Pascal]

This is why I am a big fan of installing inverter remotes and other controls (like water maker remotes, etc..) where you can see them most of the time.

Also, on my 53, I have installed Blue Seas digital meters with alarms which will alert me if voltage (AC or DC) will fall below a set voltage. They re also far more readable than the oem analogs.

That said, how come you didn't have enough juice in the second bank to crank that said and parallel to crank the other one ?

 

[GJH]

Mike is one of those guys who paralleled all his banks to be inverter-fed, or feeding as the case may be. Fortunately it sounds like he did install a separate battery for the generator (a lot of old Hatts used the starboard main bank, but of course that meant in many caes a 32v gennerator starter).

This is a big reason i did NOT got that route, but gave the inverter it's own dedicated bank.
and another reason I am glad the PO installed a set of Charles Iso Boost transformers; there is a lot of stuff other than inverters that would be unhappy, or at least have hurt feelings, with voltages that low.
Being obsessive about checking your panels is always a good idea too, though we were not always so attentive.

 

[MikeP]

As George point out, we use a single bank, not separate banks. I combined them nearly 10 years ago when I installed the Outback. I prefer that method of operation as I have posted here in related discussions. Of course, I must admit that separate banks would have prevented today's temporary non-start. As I posted originally re combining banks, I would NOT do it if the generator uses the same batts as the mains. But in our case, the NL 16KW uses a 12V start battery which is totally independent of any other system on the boat. So, as noted, starting the genny/charging the batts delayed our departure by less than 15 minutes.

If I had recalled the instance previously at the same marina, I would have checked the voltage and I could have reset the OB to operate normally at the lower V level.

Re gauges, certainly digital are easier to read but the OEM analog gauges (volts/amps/frequency) on our boat agree with my Fluke meters so I don't have any reason to replace them. But a low voltage "alarm" would be a nice thing. OTOH, I have never had this happen at any other marina but it's only fair to say that we seldom use marinas, preferring to anchor out.

 

[Boatsb]

Bummer. Good thing the genny started.

The victrons I use have an input window from 90 to 140 volts. They also have the ability to increase voltage and add amperage from the bank when called for. This is why I sell them and not the outbacks.

 

[MikeP]

In thinking about it now, seems like I should just set the OB input "trigger" to a rather low value, like the 90V you mentioned. Maybe I'll drag out the instructions for the first time in several years.

 

[Pascal]

Sure the analogs work but you can't read them without opening the cover doors and looking up close. Big red digital numbers can be seen from 15' away. Over the years they have helped me catch issues before they became problems, things like a tripped charger breaker, low shore power voltage, etc. Same with bilge pump indicator lights, twice I ve had a watermaker leak which I caught right away because I noticed the pump cycling on tanks to a visible light

 

[MikeP]

The default voltage setting for the Outback from the factory is 108v. At lower than that it will not recognize the input power. When I reset it many years ago (I found my notes about that incident), I set it to 105 based on the 106 that was coming to the inverter and it worked fine. I didn't think to check the voltage at the inverter last night so I don't know what it actually was but it was obviously 104 or below. Based on the 200VAC at the boat's meter, I assume that 100VAC was going to the inverter.

The Mate display can show the input voltage but I didn't think to look at it.

 

[Scarlett]

I have the exact same setup, one big bank, pass through etc. on the mate the 2 lights are either AC in or invert, did the mate show AC in but was inverting due to low voltage or had it shifted to the inverting light? Hope this makes sense, John

 

[SKYCHENEY]

This is why I wired up the boost switches on my Iso-trans. They are a life saver. I don't understand why everybody doesn't do this. Its so simple and inexpensive.

 

[MikeP]

This is why I wired up the boost switches on my Iso-trans. They are a life saver. I don't understand why everybody doesn't do this. Its so simple and inexpensive.

Well, the reason I didn't do it is...I don't know what the heck you are talking about! What are "boost switches?" Where are they located? I assume I have the same set up as your boat - Two Iso transformers - but I have never noticed any associated switches. I haven't seen anything re boost switches in the OEM Hatt documentation. Not saying it isn't there but I've never noticed it. Admittedly, I never looked for it either.

"I have the exact same setup, one big bank, pass through etc. on the mate the 2 lights are either AC in or invert, did the mate show AC in but was inverting due to low voltage or had it shifted to the inverting light? "

John, I didn't look at the mate panel at all; I've become so used to everything happening automatically that I have to admit I seldom look at the panel. Pretty much the only thing I do with the Mate nowadays is turn the inverter "off" when we are away for extended periods, and back "on" when we are on the boat. However, based on the symptoms yesterday (low batts) plus the previous time some years ago when it occurred and I DID realize what was going on, the inverter was inverting due to the low voltage on the shore power line so it was using batteries on the pass through circuit when I ASSUMED that it was using shore power. Also, of course, since as far as the inverter was concerned, there was no shore (or generator) power, there was no battery charging either...

Clearly, two things could have made this a non issue - acceptable marina shore power and me actually checking on what the inverter was doing. I doubt that the shore power will be fixed so that leaves the other option. Also, dropping the OutBack's input voltage level to some rather low setting would do the job as well.

 

[bobk]

This is why I wired up the boost switches on my Iso-trans. They are a life saver. I don't understand why everybody doesn't do this. Its so simple and inexpensive.

Sky,

Would you have a picture of your switch on the panel? I just looked at mine and don't think I have the real estate for it so would need to build something for the ER.

Bobk

 

[luckydave215]

This is why I wired up the boost switches on my Iso-trans. They are a life saver. I don't understand why everybody doesn't do this. Its so simple and inexpensive

SKY, how 'bout you do a little write up (with pics and wiring diagrams) for the "tips and tricks" section so we can all see how you accomplished this. I recently (two weeks ago) had a conversation with Roger Wetherington about this very subject and he told me it wasn't possible with my transformers. I had the option of reversing them as they are wired in "backwards" so we have the option of plugging in 110 or 220V, reversing the install would eliminate this feature and the only other option that made financial sense was to install a boost transformer on one of the iso trans outputs. So.. I ordered a boost transformer to do this, I'm still waiting for it to arrive.

On probably any inverter the low voltage input cut off is adjustable. Search the menus/manual. On mine the menu to adjust this value is in a hidden menu not normally accessible to the owner. A manufacturers tech walked me though it on the phone while I did it. We have notoriously low dock voltage - 190 sometimes - and without adjusting this the inverter won't charge it's bank.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

SKY, how 'bout you do a little write up (with pics and wiring diagrams) for the "tips and tricks" section so we can all see how you accomplished this. I recently (two weeks ago) had a conversation with Roger Wetherington about this very subject and he told me it wasn't possible with my transformers. I had the option of reversing them as they are wired in "backwards" so we have the option of plugging in 110 or 220V, reversing the install would eliminate this feature and the only other option that made financial sense was to install a boost transformer on one of the iso trans outputs. So.. I ordered a boost transformer to do this, I'm still waiting for it to arrive.

On probably any inverter the low voltage input cut off is adjustable. Search the menus/manual. On mine the menu to adjust this value is in a hidden menu not normally accessible to the owner. A manufacturers tech walked me though it on the phone while I did it. We have notoriously low dock voltage - 190 sometimes - and without adjusting this the inverter won't charge it's bank.

I have posted on this several times. I will search for the threads.


And yes, you will loose the ability to run off of a 120v receptable because you have to reverse the primary and secondary in the transformer. What I did was to only put the boost switch on one transformer. That leaves the second transformer OEM so it can still be used on a 120v input if needed.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Here is the thread.

http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/sh...r-mod&highlight=boost+primary+secondary+meter

Sorry, not pictures in there. I will take a couple of the switch and volt meter that I added in the gen room next to the transformer.


I also did this mod on Airpilot's 60C. With his boat, we didn't need the meter because his meters in his main panel will give input and output voltage of the transformer via a switch at the meter. I guess that's the difference between a 1978 and a 1985 model Hatt.

 

[luckydave215]

Thanks SKY, that's exactly what Roger told me - reverse the H and X sides of the windings.
As my boat is near to Mexico (and because she's remarkably unmolested stock configuration) I didn't want to lose the input options, so I'm boosting the isotrans output on one side instead.
Foolish, I guess, but............so is owning a boat

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Thanks SKY, that's exactly what Roger told me - reverse the H and X sides of the windings.
As my boat is near to Mexico (and because she's remarkably unmolested stock configuration) I didn't want to lose the input options, so I'm boosting the isotrans output on one side instead.
Foolish, I guess, but............so is owning a boat

That's why I only put the boost on one transformer. I still have the ability to use a 120v inlet with the other transformer.

When I look at how often I've ever used that 120v inlet (maybe twice in 13 years), I should probably just add a boost switch to the other transformer. I would have if my home dock was low, but I only need to boost when I'm traveling and normally only haul out one cord anyway.

 

[MikeP]

Ah, now I get it!

I agree this sounds like an excellent mod to deal with marinas with questionable voltage. I doubt I'll do it since we almost never use marinas but I can certainly see the benefit and if we change our operating style to make more use of marinas, I'll definitely do it, placing a remote switch somewhere at the lower helm area

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Ah, now I get it!

I agree this sounds like an excellent mod to deal with marinas with questionable voltage. I doubt I'll do it since we almost never use marinas but I can certainly see the benefit and if we change our operating style to make more use of marinas, I'll definitely do it, placing a remote switch somewhere at the lower helm area

At the helm/main panel area would be nice, but I put mine close to the transformer so I didn't have to buy more 6awg wire. Yes, I have to jump down into the gen room to do the switching, but for the few times each season that I need it, its not a big deal.

 

[MikeP]

That's a good point - it's not that hard to get down there, it's not like you have to do it every day, and it's a lot less trouble/expense wiring-wise.