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Onan Bonding

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Tinman

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Hatteras Model
50' CONV -Series III (1990 - present)
Recently had the Onan generator heat exchanger replaced because of saltwater leak due to corrosion on the raw water tube. The generator or H/E were not bonded. The mechanic suggested bonding to the H/E to the frame and to the bonding system. Double checking to see if this is correct for a 2002 Hatteras 50C? My thoughts are that both should be bonded.

Also, the original H/E did not have a bonding post, but the new H/E from Mr. Cool has a post for bonding.

Your thoughts appreciated...
 
I am interested to see what folks think on this. Doesn't your boat have isolation transformers as well as a bonding system? Perhaps someone can comment on the role of the on-board bonding system in a boat that also has isolation transformers, hence no direct connection to dockside electric. For my part, if it were my boat, I would take his advice and connect it to the bonding system- but I am keen to hear what others have to say about it.
 
Yes it has a isolation transformer. I am surprised that neither was bonded, but there may be a reason because of the I/T.
 
Most likely the problem was poor quality tube metal or poor quality solder/weld material.

If there is no pencil zinc for the H/E I'd not worry. THAT might offer some protection.

"The mechanic suggested bonding to the H/E to the frame and to the bonding system."

I am unsure what that means: If you connect a wire from the H/E to the frame of that generator you have done all you can. [See below] You do NOT want to run separate wires from the H/E, one to the generator frame and another to the bonding system. Generator ground and any other ground should have a single point of connection to the bonding system. Don't add any others. The problem with an isolated H/E like this is that any protective zincs associated with the bonding system and galvanic corrosion or electrolysis protection are too far away to protect the H/E. That's why for example Detroit water pumps and heat exchangers have local pencil zincs.

I had the H/E apart on my 1972 Hatteras Onan 12 KW generator at age 35...it was starting to run hotter than I liked.... I found the iron ends of the H/E were so overgrown with iron oxide [rust], and maybe mineral deposits from salt water attached as well, it was blocking the water passage through the copper tubes. That H/E is now 42 years old and is still working just fine...no zinc, no bonding....BUT

In all probability your H/E is "bonded" [ Loosely speaking, really grounded] all this means is that it is electrically connected to ground and any bonding system via the mounting bolts. It's easy to check: Test the resistance between any part on the H/E and either the generator or if you prefer either ground or a point in the bonding system. If it IS electrically connected you'll get almost zero resistance way,way less than an ohm....

If you'd like to connect a wire anyway it sure won't hurt anything. You may also find that when you generator is off, salt water drains out of the H/E....if so 99% of the time any electrical condition makes no difference.

On isolation transformers: Isolation transformers keep most dockside frailities and screw ups of other guys off your boat...like reverse polarity at the shorepower pedestal, dc leaks in the boat next door, lack of zincs on the other guys boat, and so forth. If you like everything bonded, do it whether you have an isolation transformer or not. I have posted several times on the pros and cons and most people like to follow ABYC rules to be safe. If anything, an isolation transformer means you'll be likely to use up your own on board zincs more slowely. But you'll still want to use zincs in some places to help guard against stray current corrosion in the outside water, galvanic corrosion due to different underwater metals on you boat, and the possibility of corrosion due to dc leakage currents on your own boat. In other words, if you liked bonding and local zincs without an isolation transformer, you'll still like them with one.

A prime example of where local zincs are required are to protect bronze alloy propellers from corrosion in the presence of stainless steel shafts...so shaft zincs in the vicinity of the props are always a good idea.

PS: I have been surveying an aluminum hull Burger with the owner of my former Hatt. It may be of interest to note that much of what I said above for a non conducting Hatteras fiberglass hull does NOT apply to metal hulls. Aluminum is more electrically active than typical underwater Hatteras metals like bronze or stainless steel. Burger, for example, electrically ISOLATES all through hull seacocks from everything else. The seacocks are all stainless steel and bronze, very corrosion resistant in themselves, are NOT bonded and NOT zinc protected. But zincs on the shafts and pencil zincs in the main engines are deployed as we have discussed.
 
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Most likely the problem was poor quality tube metal or poor quality solder/weld material.

If there is no pencil zinc for the H/E I'd not worry. THAT might offer some protection.

"The mechanic suggested bonding to the H/E to the frame and to the bonding system."

I am unsure what that means: If you connect a wire from the H/E to the frame of that generator you have done all you can. [See below] You do NOT want to run separate wires from the H/E, one to the generator frame and another to the bonding system. Generator ground and any other ground should have a single point of connection to the bonding system. Don't add any others. The problem with an isolated H/E like this is that any protective zincs associated with the bonding system and galvanic corrosion or electrolysis protection are too far away to protect the H/E. That's why for example Detroit water pumps and heat exchangers have local pencil zincs.

I had the H/E apart on my 1972 Hatteras Onan 12 KW generator at age 35...it was starting to run hotter than I liked.... I found the iron ends of the H/E were so overgrown with iron oxide [rust], and maybe mineral deposits from salt water attached as well, it was blocking the water passage through the copper tubes. That H/E is now 42 years old and is still working just fine...no zinc, no bonding....BUT

In all probability your H/E is "bonded" [ Loosely speaking, really grounded] all this means is that it is electrically connected to ground and any bonding system via the mounting bolts. It's easy to check: Test the resistance between any part on the H/E and either the generator or if you prefer either ground or a point in the bonding system. If it IS electrically connected you'll get almost zero resistance way,way less than an ohm....

If you'd like to connect a wire anyway it sure won't hurt anything. You may also find that when you generator is off, salt water drains out of the H/E....if so 99% of the time any electrical condition makes no difference.

On isolation transformers: Isolation transformers keep most dockside frailities and screw ups of other guys off your boat...like reverse polarity at the shorepower pedestal, dc leaks in the boat next door, lack of zincs on the other guys boat, and so forth. If you like everything bonded, do it whether you have an isolation transformer or not. I have posted several times on the pros and cons and most people like to follow ABYC rules to be safe. If anything, an isolation transformer means you'll be likely to use up your own on board zincs more slowely. But you'll still want to use zincs in some places to help guard against stray current corrosion in the outside water, galvanic corrosion due to different underwater metals on you boat, and the possibility of corrosion due to dc leakage currents on your own boat. In other words, if you liked bonding and local zincs without an isolation transformer, you'll still like them with one.

A prime example of where local zincs are required are to protect bronze alloy propellers from corrosion in the presence of stainless steel shafts...so shaft zincs in the vicinity of the props are always a good idea.

PS: I have been surveying an aluminum hull Burger with the owner of my former Hatt. It may be of interest to note that much of what I said above for a non conducting Hatteras fiberglass hull does NOT apply to metal hulls. Aluminum is more electrically active than typical underwater Hatteras metals like bronze or stainless steel. Burger, for example, electrically ISOLATES all through hull seacocks from everything else. The seacocks are all stainless steel and bronze, very corrosion resistant in themselves, are NOT bonded and NOT zinc protected. But zincs on the shafts and pencil zincs in the main engines are deployed as we have discussed.


The existing H/E Has a zinc. Not sure what alloy it is or if it is the original H/E. It is held to brackets attached to the pan with ss hose clamps. My electrician will be at the boat tomorrow and will check to see if the H/E is grounded to the frame and not isolated.

The new H/E has a label "copper nickel" which is good, has a zinc, and a bonding post if we need it.
It appears to be a quality part.

Zincs seem to be holding up ok, shafts 4/5 months and rudders about 3 months. Electrician is going to check bonding system along with some other work while he is here.

Thanks for the suggestions. We will be discussing all this tomorrow and will update what we find and decide to do. May just leave the H/E as is.

PS: I would be interested in your opinion of Aluminum hull boats after you finish your survey. I have heard pros and cons about Aluminum. No actual experience with metal hulls other than some painting years ago when working at a boatyard.
 
Well, we got a good reading of zero ohms on the new H/E, which is painted. Because of the perforation in the outer tube on the existing H/E and possibly being isolated with losing the ground at the mount brackets we have added a bonding wire from the H/E to the frame as insurance. My electrician said he has not bonded any generators. Says they are grounded which should be good enough.
 
For information on aluminum hulls, read Nigel Warren's "Metal Corrosion in Boats"> I don't know if it is still in print but you may be able to find a copy through Alibris or Amazon if it isn't. Everything you want to know is in there.

I owned an aluminum boat years back, a 44' Striker. They are definitely a lot more work than fiberglass boats, noisy and damp. Mine was built in Norway, by Fjellstrand Aluminum Yachts, and was very well made, but I wouldn't have another one. Metal boats require a great deal more in the way of upkeep than fiberglass boats, and everything you do is more expensive. Boats cost enough without adding that additional level of complexity.
 
Thanks Jim, you just answered my question. I have always been curious about the 62 Striker, but I really don't want anymore maintenance than a teak-less fiberglass boat.
 
"I owned an aluminum boat years back, a 44' Striker. They are definitely a lot more work than fiberglass boats, noisy and damp. Mine was built in Norway, by Fjellstrand Aluminum Yachts, and was very well made, but I wouldn't have another one. Metal boats require a great deal more in the way of upkeep than fiberglass boats, and everything you do is more expensive. Boats cost enough without adding that additional level of complexity.

Mostly I agree in general but the 63 foot Burger we surveyed was incredibly dry...not an exterior fresh water leak anywhere except for some soft wood molding around windshield windows. Likely due to old caulk. We slept aboard for ten days and return again for another week aboard Monday 1/5. Some bilge water due to fresh water system dribbles...we got that fixed strasight away and with dripless shaft seals that did not leak a drop, she should stay dry. I checked and Burger uses the same alloy aluminum today as it did back then;5086 if I recall...

The owner of my former 48ft Hatt YF purchased this Burger a few weeks ago....

This hull surveyed like new via some 350 ultrasound readings [for hull thickness] having been completely gutted and remodeled in the early 1990's and having some bottom hull plating replaced back then. This boat is incredibly quiet inside having I think been somehow insulated during the last refit. And the strength is unbelievable...nothing moves, noticeably more solid than fiberglass superstructure, not the slightest give it decks nor roofs. And quiet underway maybe due to superior sound insulation. That survey was done be an experienced metal hull surveyor and WAS more expensive than checking a glass hull...

I don't know about the long term durability of AWLGRIP on aluminum versus on fiberglass but in general aluminum hull corrosion must be monitored carefully. The surveyor did the proper cchecks with a silver chloride reference cell and found almost perfect readings....that is, no stray currents, Virtually no hull deterioriation after 43+ years since the redo and 53+ since new. With isolation transformers or equivalent protection against dockside shorepower leakage currents, electrically isolated underwater seacocks, and proper maintenance of zincs on the propeller shafts, and keeping DC wiring out of bilge water, I do not see any near term problems.

I was impressed with this particular builder: Burger has an excellent reputation for metal quality and welding quality. No spot welds here and there, willy nilly; everywhere I checked were full length welds, for example the engine beds and fastenings to the hull bottom....no fiberglass tabs. FYI, I have been told the weld strength of aluminum is on the order of 80,000 lbs per inch of proper weld. On the other hand, the owner won't be operating full time in the North Sea nor Georges Bank!!

I did NOT go into this thinking aluminum hulls are wonderful. Just as blister and delamination checks are anabsolute necessity on fiberglass hulls, corrosion readings and ultrasound checks are with an aluminum hull.
 
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