Oil analysis of 16V92

[whoover]

Well everyone let me hear your thoughts. I have completed sea trial, mechanical and hull survey of a 1999 65' sport fish in Stuart. The sea trial went well, the boat reached 31 knots, port 99.1% and the starboard 100% load. Temps were 187 port, 190 starboard. RPMs were port 2232 and starboard 2207. The higher rpm port was loaded .9% less than the starboard at 100%. The port oil came back with severe iron at 68 ppm and abnormal tin at 15 ppm. The starboard oil came back with iron at 36 ppm and (no warning) and severe tin at 19 ppm. Does anyone know the wear limits Detroit engineers put on these engines. The last oil change was 100 hours ago and hours are 834 since a rebuild. My engine surveyor was impressed with the rebuild, he said that it looked as good as a removal and reinstall. As much as the group can tell me I appreciate it.

Thanks
Walt Hoover

 

[Boatsb]

Let me get an understanding of what your asking.

1) You have an oil analysis showing abnormal results from a qualified lab that compares the results to the manufacturers specification.

2) You had a qualified mechanic dk a thorough engine survey on the engines.

3) You have a documented rebuild the mechanic verified and approved of.


So your now asking those who have not seen or touched the engines to make a case to disregard the findings of professionals who have first hand knowledge of the engines for what reason?

 

[Captain Ralph]

How long have the engines been sitting?
Any previous oil lab reports?

 

[Glory]

I'll add how many hours on the oil?

 

[SeaEric]

100 hours is quite a bit to expect a clean oil analysis. What was the date of the last oil change? Capt Ralph
is on to something relative to time she has been sitting.

 

[madhatter1]

My oil analysis on my 8-92’s go from good to high alarm to good again. No mechanical changes. Think about it. Nothing going south on an engine will ever “heal” and get better on its own. The differences come from how taken and if run before. You will not be afforded the opportunity to change oil and take a new sample properly after 30 or so hours.

I would recommend on engines as large as these to get a second separate survey by another qualified mechanic. Have both mechanics compare notes and opinions on the condition. Repower is for rich guys. Dudes like us (I am guessing here on your position) need to think about possible rebuilds in our future. I ballpark my 8-92’s at $50 a side to be maybe safe. Double on the 16-92’s. That is if needed.

Also I invested in a lot of proactive maintenance to head things off into the distant future so I could enjoy the boat. Around $8-10k a side for that portion of work. But has proved to be worth it. I have a gay to recommend for 2nd survey from west coast FL but Stuart side probably has several that could be recommended by others here.

 

[madhatter1]

It’s guy to recommend! Dang iPhone won’t let me edit!

 

[rsmith]

Unless it’s damn near free I wouldn’t touch 16/92’s with a 100’ pole. Just because they have been rebuilt doesn’t mean they were done right. Your mechanic has no way to tell if the bearings were put in or toqued right. Plus could be garbage china parts prematurely wearing as I’ve heard is common today. Run Forest Run

 

[Fanfare]

Hey Walt
In 1994, at Jack Hargrave's suggestion, I reengined Fanfare with new DD 6V-92TA @ 550 hp. Early on I ran oil analyses on engines and transmissions and panicked at the results which were flagged as high on iron (cylinder liners) and tin (bearings). I contacted DD who sent me new amended analysis limits showing higher figures for the then-new turbo units indicating I was OK. My recollection is that these numbers came down a bit as the engines broke in but were still higher than for the non-turbo engines. My engines have been flawless now for 34 years. Thanks Roger Pensky! They don't even leak oil!

It has always been hard to find these updated analysis numbers as opposed to the earlier figures but I will try and report back. There will always be something with any old Hatteras. I am not sure I would call this a deal breaker.

 

[whoover]

I just got the hull survey this morning, general surveyor opinion is the boat is in good condition with maintenance required. I feel that after 800 hrs iron and bearing breakin should be complete. I do not have any previous oil reports, that would be nice to track. I would like to see an oil change done and another 50 hrs put on the boat then retest. Another idea is to try and get it at such a good price as to have a reserve for engine maintenance. The previous owner made alot of upgrades to the fancy things like electronics but now it looks like he has lost interest. It might be a diamond in the rough but I want to be in a position above water, not below. My feeling is to just keep an eye on it and revisit it in six months if still available. Everyone's thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks
Walt Hoover

 

[whoover]

Jim if you can find wear limits I would appreciate seeing them.

Thanks

 

[SeaEric]

I don't even pretend to understand the big SF market. I'm a motoryacht guy.
When I look at the available inventory, there is about a $300K premium for Cat
powered boats over DD 92 powered. If you plan to run this boat fast, be ready for
what comes. If you're going to cruise her gently - like a MY, the 92's will probably
be fine. Just be willing to give her away when you're done.

 

[rwaldrop13]

While I am an old Coastie, I was not a snipe (engineer in civilian terms), but I talk to a lot of old Coasties and Navy people. Across the board they all said the same thing - If you're looking for easy maintenance/repairs/durability stick with Detroits. A Navy engineer friend told me during our initial boat search "if you buy anything but Detroits you're dead to me". He was a 35+ year engineering veteran who's last 16 years was spent as a shiprider out of San Diego, Guantanamo and Little Creek. For those who don't know, shipriders are the best of the best, and their role is evaluating vessels and personnel for readiness/maintenance standards. It's not a casual assignment. Between him, and my fellow old Coasties, the resounding verdict is, Detroits are more reliable, repairable, and if you're so inclined, can be rebuilt by a reasonably patient person with the appropriate service manual and parts - unlike other manufacturers. But they're not really built for high-speed running, was the subtext. IMHO, I am going to listen to the people that put in double-digit years of service in the engine rooms, and stick with Detroits over the others. While I only had Pau Hana for 2 years, I never had a mechanical problem with the engines I couldn't puzzle out myself, and there's a lot of reasonably priced Detroit parts available. Just points to ponder.

 

[cww]

While I am an old Coastie, I was not a snipe (engineer in civilian terms), but I talk to a lot of old Coasties and Navy people. Across the board they all said the same thing - If you're looking for easy maintenance/repairs/durability stick with Detroits. A Navy engineer friend told me during our initial boat search "if you buy anything but Detroits you're dead to me". He was a 35+ year engineering veteran who's last 16 years was spent as a shiprider out of San Diego, Guantanamo and Little Creek. For those who don't know, shipriders are the best of the best, and their role is evaluating vessels and personnel for readiness/maintenance standards. It's not a casual assignment. Between him, and my fellow old Coasties, the resounding verdict is, Detroits are more reliable, repairable, and if you're so inclined, can be rebuilt by a reasonably patient person with the appropriate service manual and parts - unlike other manufacturers. But they're not really built for high-speed running, was the subtext. IMHO, I am going to listen to the people that put in double-digit years of service in the engine rooms, and stick with Detroits over the others. While I only had Pau Hana for 2 years, I never had a mechanical problem with the engines I couldn't puzzle out myself, and there's a lot of reasonably priced Detroit parts available. Just points to ponder.

That's usually true, Detroits are normally good reliable cheap boating. The problem with the 16V92's (besides the wet liners) is that most of them were DDEC which is unreliable and very expensive to fix. DDEC boats sell at a substantial discount to the same boat with Cats, Cummins or even the non-DDEC version of the same engines. DDEC is a well known pain in the ass.

 

[rwaldrop13]

That's usually true, Detroits are normally good reliable cheap boating. The problem with the 16V92's (besides the wet liners) is that most of them were DDEC which is unreliable and very expensive to fix. DDEC boats sell at a substantial discount to the same boat with Cats, Cummins or even the non-DDEC version of the same engines. DDEC is a well known pain in the ass.

Thanks CWW, that's the technical point I miss every time... The folks I listened to also assumed I was working with non-DDEC engines but you made the point I missed.

 

[Fanfare]

Series 92 Marine High Output Pleasure Craft Engines Warning Limits parts per million:
Iron 250
Tin 50
January 1993
Mechanical, not DDEC
PM me your email and I will send the report.

 

[whoover]

I have decided to ask for an oil change on both mains and ten hours of run time, then sample oil again. The worst that can happen is the answer is no.

Walt Hoover

 

[rsmith]

There won’t be enough run time on the sample to mean anything

 

[rsmith]

If you really want to see what’s going on have them cut the filters open and check the pleats. That’s where the metal actually accumulates. It’s standard procedure for aircraft. I did oil analysis every 50 hours both engines on the plane for 25 years and saw nothing but when I did have a failure of a starter drive it all ended up in the filter

 

[whoover]

I have managed to get the oil analysis from the previous survey in Sept of 2024. The hours tested at were 1500 as opposed to the 800 we used for reference.

Port engine
09/23//2024 iron 27ppm
tin 22ppm
12/23/2024 iron 68ppm
tin 15ppm

Starboard
09/23/2024 iron 80ppm
tin 23ppm
13/23/2024 iron 36ppm
tin 19ppm

So it looks like all of the levels are dropping except for the port iron which went up 41ppm. Same oil, maybe 3 hours more run time.
What does everyone think, I'm starting to lose faith in samples. Yes they were tested at the same lab.

Walt Hoover