Moving Aboard... 65LRC... Maintenance? Insurance?

[scallywag]

The Plan

My wife and I have been planning on living aboard once the kids move out, but the more we think about it the more we want to make the move right away. We live in the Miami area and have a son (15) and three daughters (13, 12, and 10). We're gonna need a large boat! I own several internet businesses and can work from anywhere. We have a 30 foot express cruiser in the Keys (Islamorada) and cruise all around South Florida plus a few jaunts to the Bahamas. The whole family is absolutely obsessed with boating, fishing, and SCUBA diving. We are one of the few suckers that own our house outright. Politically, we're sick of "renting" our land from the government and would gain some satisfaction from cutting that umbilical. We've gone through the pros and cons list and have drilled it down for months. We recognize the downsides, but the upsides are just too hard for us to resist!

The Right Boat

We've looked at a lot of boats, but keep coming back to classic Hatteras motoryachts between 58 and 65 feet. Four staterooms is a must. A cockpit and galley-up is desired. Our *ULTIMATE* boat is the 65 LRC. We plan on selling the house in a few months and buying a 65 LRC assuming we can arrive on a deal. There are three on the market. Does anybody have any personal knowledge of Sue's Pool III, Miss Gayle, or the one in Mystic CT that apparently is bank owned? What mechanical or structural problems would you look for?

Maintenance. Reality check?

I expect comparing maintaining my 30 foot express to a 65 foot motoryacht as being apples to oranges. I've had an open checkbook policy with my current boat and expect to do the same with the next boat. I'm no mechanic, but I enjoy doing a lot of the work myself and I'm constantly learning. To me, this is a huge part of boating! I've heard people throw a grenade number of about $1000/foot per year for maintenance. This sounds acceptable, but I keep adding things up in my head and can only get half way to $65,000 and thats including docking, insurance, detailing, and prorated items like canvas, bottom paint, brightwork, etc... I'm assuming the other half is the "oh crap" fund or rebuilds/major overhauls?

Insuring a Fool...

I expect finding insurance to be "the quest for the holy grail" since I'm jumping from 30 foot express cruiser to 65 foot motoryacht. The largest boat I've operated is a 40 foot sedan bridge. In a month or two I'll be taking a captains license course. I understand experience is what is important, but will having "paper captain" status help with obtaining insurance or at least bring the rates down a bit? We plan on hiring a captain for the delivery and have him teach my wife and I to handle the boat along the way. Sort of a la "Captain Ron". I understand this might be required by the underwriter anyway. What are the odds that we are outright un-insurable?

Any advise or input you can provide is helpful. Thanks!

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I passed Miss Gayle on the ICW at Ft Myers a few weeks back. She looked good.

I think the one that is bank owned is the one that Cleani Dini worked on. Do a search here and you will see pics of the refit.

 

[Boatsb]

Its easy to get to the $65k when you have the boat professionally maintained.

Just look at the cost of repairing basic systems. A water pump can cost an easy $500 for an ac system.

Double that if you have a yard install it. They also will charge for clashing and detailing the outside, divers cleaning the bottom and just basic monthly fees.

Everything on the larger boats cost more and having it done for you adds up fast. If you add upgrades like electronics or systems be prepared to spend. Also don't forget the fuel cost and dockage if you travel.

 

[hyperfishing]

Draft, draft. draft! But, you are in Florida and knew that already!

A big catamaran maybe? More like the captain Ron family also. <gg>

 

[GJH]

I recommend spending some time searching the archives and seeing all the things people are maintaining, fixing, replacing and upgrading. You can see how fast you can get to that 65k number pretty easily, especially as Scott said, if you have competent professionals doing the work.

Perhaps the biggest factor is what condition the boat is in when you acquire it (what the prior owner's standards were) and what your standards are. That will determine the initial and ongoing outlays. That is, how deep a money pit do you have on your hands.

So then another big factor is what you value your own time at, what you are good at doing, and what you enjoy doing. If there is something I don't like to do and/or not good at (typically one and the same thing), then hiring a pro is cheaper than psychotherapy as my wife likes to say. Many projects would take me two or three times as long to do as a pro, so I have to value my time accordingly.

So much is determined, then, by you personally, every bit as much as by the boat.

 

[scallywag]

Draft, draft. draft! But, you are in Florida and knew that already!

A big catamaran maybe? More like the captain Ron family also. <gg>

Agreed 100% on the three items you mention (Draft, draft. and draft!), but couldn't ever see myself in a cat. Even a power cat. Plus, you might be able to access skinny water, but you most likely can't find dock space in a cat.

The 65LRC brochure claims 4' 0" draft... which seems optimistic. I see listings stating 4 ' 10". South Florida and the Bahamas will be our main cruising grounds with a few jaunts to the Carrib, so I need to keep draft less than 5'.

I passed Miss Gayle on the ICW at Ft Myers a few weeks back. She looked good.

I think the one that is bank owned is the one that Cleani Dini worked on. Do a search here and you will see pics of the refit.

Thanks for the info on Cleani Dini. I read through the entire thread. Pics of the engine room look like the mains need some TLC. I'm wondering how long its been since major overhaul? I like the idea of having all the grunt work done and having the wife pick out the flooring, window treatments, and furniture.

Any advice on insurance? I've been insured through Loyds of London, Progressive, and now BoatUS with zero claims. Downside is I'm young, inexperienced at the helm of a like vessel, and located in a hurricane zone year round. I'm expecting five figures for insurance, but the worst case scenario is I sell the house and find out I can't get insurance at closing for the boat. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Angela]

I don't get the "draft, draft, draft" comment. The brochure says the 65LRC is 4' 10" which is what we are and we go pretty much anywhere we want. Aren't the 53MYs and 58YFs also 4' 10"? I would have guessed the 65 LRC to be a little more than 4' 10". I sure do like those LRCs!!! Wish I had one.

As for insurance...yep...be prepared to pay five figures if you are a recreational vessel (you know, recreational actually costs MORE than commercial! I found it to be twice as much - no exaggeration.) If you own the boat clear of a loan, you can always go "liability only" and you may find that kind of coverage to be easy to obtain down here in Miami; that is, if all else fails - that LRC is out of the "age" range for many insurers. I'd be afraid of fire or something like that which I couldn't necessarily foresee, but people often go "liability only" when there is no other choice or while they are on the hunt for a better option. Insurance will be very frustrating, but don't give up - you will find something if you press hard enough. I've been in those shoes.

 

[yachtbrokerguy]

Insurance will be hard to get and that is where you should start. I hate to hear about buyers who spend a long time searching, then find the right boat, but can not get insurance.
Check with your current insurance agent first because you already have a relationship with them, try your home owners agent and your business agent. If that does not work try Joe Kolisch at 305-992-3482. And yes, you might have to have a licensed captain on board for the first six months or year.
An older Hatteras might be easier to get insurance for than an older boat from another builder, so that helps a little.
Then there is a different Hatteras option, generally the LRC's sell for a higher price than the motor yachts. You might find a newer motor yacht for the same price as an older LRC.

 

[rsmith]

Take a honest look and see if the LRC suites your mission profile. they are great long range sea boats. But the round bottom tends to roll even at the dock. Just watch one in a marina with other boats, it takes alot longer for round bottom boats to stop the roll ossilations.

 

[ron6785]

Well you certainly have set your sights on a fine boat. I think most of us would agree that the LRC's are among the finest boats Hatteras has ever made. To me the key is how you are going to use the boat. Since you are not new to boating, you probably have a pretty good idea of that.

If you plan to do alot of blue water cruising , then the LRC is certainly the way to go. If you are planning to use the boat here in the US or the Caribbean then any of the Hat 60+ Ft. boats will do the job, or for that matter just about any size Hat.

If you are cruising a boat then the 10 percent of purchase price for maintenance seem to be accurate over a 5-10 year period, assuming you've purchase a boat made in the 70's or 80's.

As you are well aware Florida is one of the most expensive places to own a boat from an insurance and dockage standpoint.

 

[TopHattandTails]

The series II 53MY has a draft of 4'0", not 4'10" like the 56'. Not aware of the 58's draft. Yes, dockage and insurance are killer in FL, but maintenance techs and yard rates are much more reasonable than what I've found in the great lakes (compare $90/hr for a boat washer versus $100 for a 45' boat washed for 3 hours via 2 people = 6 man hours in FL). Good thing I find boat washing theraputic!

 

[scallywag]

Well you certainly have set your sights on a fine boat. I think most of us would agree that the LRC's are among the finest boats Hatteras has ever made. To me the key is how you are going to use the boat. Since you are not new to boating, you probably have a pretty good idea of that.

If you plan to do alot of blue water cruising , then the LRC is certainly the way to go. If you are planning to use the boat here in the US or the Caribbean then any of the Hat 60+ Ft. boats will do the job, or for that matter just about any size Hat.

If you are cruising a boat then the 10 percent of purchase price for maintenance seem to be accurate over a 5-10 year period, assuming you've purchase a boat made in the 70's or 80's.

As you are well aware Florida is one of the most expensive places to own a boat from an insurance and dockage standpoint.

We're entertaining the idea of other models, but the 65LRC is a home run on range, build quality, and layout. We're like the idea of having just about no cruising destination limits for the marginal cost increase of the LRC. Regardless of the model, we will be running at hull speed for range and economy. My understanding is the wider 18'2" beam hulls have a hard time achieving 1g/1nm at hull speed, but the 65LRC achieves this?

The 58CPMY almost fits the bill, but we're talking about a family of 6 living aboard full time. Space will be a commodity item.

The 67 Extended Deckhouse is just too 90s' with it's sterile beige finish. We prefer the 70s' and early 80s' vintage wood tone finish work.

The 68CPMY is a nice looking option. A bit of wasted space in the dressing area in the master state room and I'd prefer a full beam engine room (space for workbench and tools!).

Am I missing any other models less than 70 feet and 5' draft with 4 berths, a cockpit, and galley up?

Florida is indeed an expensive place to own a boat, but if any of us were in it to save money we wouldn't own a boat at all! I appreciate the words of wisdom from you guys. I'm going start with yachtbrokerguy's suggestion and call some insurance contacts. I'm glad Angela brought up the option of going "liability only" since the boat will be owned outright. Its good to know all the options. I'm still a few months away. First, I need to find a sucker to buy this house! Its a bad time to sell a house, but its a great time to buy a boat.

 

[rsmith]

We're entertaining the idea of other models, but the 65LRC is a home run on range, build quality, and layout. We're like the idea of having just about no cruising destination limits for the marginal cost increase of the LRC. Regardless of the model, we will be running at hull speed for range and economy. My understanding is the wider 18'2" beam hulls have a hard time achieving 1g/1nm at hull speed, but the 65LRC achieves this?

The 58CPMY almost fits the bill, but we're talking about a family of 6 living aboard full time. Space will be a commodity item.

The 67 Extended Deckhouse is just too 90s' with it's sterile beige finish. We prefer the 70s' and early 80s' vintage wood tone finish work.

The 68CPMY is a nice looking option. A bit of wasted space in the dressing area in the master state room and I'd prefer a full beam engine room (space for workbench and tools!).

Am I missing any other models less than 70 feet and 5' draft with 4 berths, a cockpit, and galley up?

Florida is indeed an expensive place to own a boat, but if any of us were in it to save money we wouldn't own a boat at all! I appreciate the words of wisdom from you guys. I'm going start with yachtbrokerguy's suggestion and call some insurance contacts. I'm glad Angela brought up the option of going "liability only" since the boat will be owned outright. Its good to know all the options. I'm still a few months away. First, I need to find a sucker to buy this house! Its a bad time to sell a house, but its a great time to buy a boat.

Buy cheap sell cheap its all relative.

 

[OBXTucker]

As mentioned, the LRC's are fine boats, but I'm biased!
We've owned our 58LRC for almost 3 years and wouldn't trade it for the world. We don't use her nearly as much as you're planning - but she's a wonderful vessel. If you have the time, get aboard a 58 and 65. You'll LOVE the spaciousness of these boats. There is a LOT more room on these than pretty much ANY other boat in their size class. Cats and regular motor yachts are no comparison. The space below decks is incredible....

With regards to draft, our 58 draws a little over 5' and has never been a problem. Yes, we're careful where we go - and sometimes have to watch the tides - but otherwise it's not a big deal.

Someone mentioned that these boats roll in the marina. I don't see this at all. As a matter of fact, while most of the planing hull boats (and some semi-displacement hulls) are bobbing around like apples, Kismet sits there happy as can be. The biggest challenge LRC's have (in my opinion) is windage. There's just SO MUCH boat in and out of the water, it makes docking a challenge in strong currents and/or wind. With that said, I'd highly recommend finding one with a bow thruster installed. I'm guessing that 30% of them have had thrusters installed aftermarket.

I would highly recommend you join the Hatteras LRC Club (www.hatteraslrc.com). Almost every owner of an LRC belongs to this tight knit group. Incredibly informative bunch - and the boats you mentioned are "For Sale" on this site too. Yes, it's a paid site/membership, but well worth the investment.

Maintenance/Upkeep/Cruising costs will vary greatly, as I'm sure you're aware. If the boat you buy has been well kept (many have been), your figure of $65,000 is not out of line. Below are my costs for the last two years (as discussed in another thread):

2010 2011
Maintenance $37,000 $25,500
Tune Ups, Elbows,
Minor repairs, Hoses,
HVAC repairs, haul outs,
Bottom paint, cleanings,
zincs, wax jobs, etc.

Elective $26,000 $32,000
Cabinetry, Bow Thruster
Electronics upgrades,
Underwater LED's, rod
holders, TV's, etc

General
Slip $6,000 $5,400
Insurance $6,000 $5,800
Fuel $3,200 $4,100
Taxes $2,600 $1,900
DirecTV 500 500
Miscellaneous $3,000 $2,000

TOTAL $81,200 $76,700

Keep in mind that these are all at Full Service Yard rates. For the most part, I step on/step off at the end of each trip. I'm starting to do more of the maintenance work myself and anticipate that 2012 will be half of the past 2 years.

Here is the thread that talks about Operating Costs:
http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?19056-Operating-costs-for-those-interested.

Insurance: As most here know, I went from a SMALL boat (25') to our 58LRC. I've been around boats (sail and power) all my life and am a very confident around boats and on the water. I've also completed most boating/sail courses for smaller boaters. That said (and as insurance companies realize), nothing beats experience. And if you don't have any experience, they won't insure you. I went to one of the larger marine insurance companies and had them agree to insure me (the boat), if I hired a captain to spend 30 hours behind the wheel with me. They agreed and the Admiral and I spent about 5 days about with two captains cruising the Chesapeake - and learning as much as we could about our new boat. In retrospect, I probably should have spent several weeks - but it was enough for the insurance company.....

Sorry for the long diatribe, but I hope this helps. PM me if you'd like more information.

 

[OBXTucker]

As a sidenote, the LRC club is having a gathering at the Stuart Boat Show this weekend. I believe 6-8 LRC's will be there (by boat) and another 5-6 owners (by car). If you're interested, I can put you in touch with them...

 

[GJH]

"There is a LOT more room on these than pretty much ANY other boat in their size class. Cats and regular motor yachts are no comparison."

You forgot to exclude Hatt MYs in that statement. My 56 has more interior room than a 58LRC; partly due to not having a cockpit, having slightly more beam, and no stairway in the salon to the master. I would never fault someone for buying an LRC though, that's for sure. But we were looking for "boat as house" as much as we were looking for a "boat to go boating in", so space and layout were very important.

We went on the 65 in Mystic while the restoration was under way, and looked at one in Ft. Lauderdale that was for sale at Yachthaven Marina. They are simply a stretch 58, but with 6 larger kids on board I can see that filling up fast. We seriously considered a 67ish CPMY, nice boat but a project nonetheless, which was extremely roomy; in the final analyis too big for our needs. Given the family situation, I don't know if this applies to the OP, but I am glad I stuck with something that could pass for 60 feet LOA, as that is the limit for many moorings we have enjoyed (Boot Key Harbor especially); and available slip sizes become scarcer too.

 

[OBXTucker]

"There is a LOT more room on these than pretty much ANY other boat in their size class. Cats and regular motor yachts are no comparison."

You forgot to exclude Hatt MYs in that statement. My 56 has more interior room than a 58LRC; partly due to not having a cockpit, having slightly more beam, and no stairway in the salon to the master. I would never fault someone for buying an LRC though, that's for sure. But we were looking for "boat as house" as much as we were looking for a "boat to go boating in", so space and layout were very important.

The 56 Wide Body is a great boat! I always forget that it's 3" wider than the LRC. Another nice couple of features of the LRC that I didn't mention before:

- Galley Up
- Day Head on the main deck (gets more use than any other feature on our boat!

To the OP, as you can see, there are qualities on each of our boats that we love!

 

[magnawake]

My insurance Company wanted me to have 20 hrs under instruction as well. The Insurance Co. didnt really want to know what I operated and what kinda experience I had. The wanted to know one thing. What was the largest boat I'd ever owned. I guess the owner feels like taking care of the boat better than just a guy who jumps aboard a runs the heck out of it. Well, 20ft, that was the answer. That was 1 year ago. I feel a lot more confident now, but still have a lot to learn. A Power Squadron course would help. Its kinda unfair though. Lots of Livaboard people never move from the dock. Just because you own a boat doesnt mean you move it away from the slip. I've seen some people who owned thier boat for years but they scared the heck otta me driving in the marina. Anyway, sorry for the rant. Bottom line, I bet you can get insured.
Another note. The surveyor will find a bunch of stuff for you to fix. The insurance Co. will want you to fix them. This can be costly, especially if you cant do them yourself. I thought they were just recommendations. No, the insurance Co. wants you to fix them promptly. Then, if the surveyor misses things, which he will, you will find other things to fix. The first year might be a costly year. Be prepared for those unseen things as well. I have the first year behind me and its been great. I dont know what I would have done without the help of this forum and friends I've made here. If I can do it, you can too. Your family will have great time. Just be prepared.

 

[Boatsb]

Not running a boat is sacrilegious. Not fixing one is worse. All insurance companies look at the boats as being used about so many hours a year average. No insurance company will insure a boat that is inoperable in a hurricane zone unless there is a way to move it in an emergency.

They may restrict the boat to port until it is repaired but I have not seen a port only policy more than 6 months or so.

There is house barge coverage in some areas that covers floating homes with no propulsion but that's another thing all together.

 

[dastahl]

TO add a bit to the LRC story (HatterasLRC.com) the 65 started production in 1982 when Hatteras discontinued the 58. They stretched the mold to 65 adding a few feet forward, pilot house and saloon. The boats draw a little over 5 feet fully loaded as I slid thru the mud yesterday coming out of Ashepoo-coosaw creek in SC were I should not have been near low tide.

The LRCs do not roll more than the MYs they roll slower. Kismet mentioned the windage and round bottomed boats with big windage do list pretty heavily when the wind hits. Mine does.

George's 56 wide body has alot more living room but I like the private entrance to the master, the pilot house, day head and the little cockpit. These things all take up some space but we use them alot. Instead of putting out the big ladder we can get off the boat thru the cockpit door on floating docks.

Hatteras made 13 65 LRCs. One was lost by collision off CA. One was lost in Katrina. Miss Gayle sold and 2 are on the market one in Ohio and hull number 1 owned by a bank in Conn. for the last 4 or 5 years.

Hope this helps.
David
Skooch 58 LRC
Thunderbolt GA heading down the ICYW in the winter with a heated pilot house