Morse Controls

[Jackman]

I have a set of morse controls for throttles and trannies on my 32SF. Since my rebuilds I haven't put too much time on the boat (just got everything done two weeks ago....although you can never get everything done on a boat!). I noticed I don't get full rpms with the engines (1985 454's carbed). The timing is right on for both engines, the entire ignition system is new as well as the distributors. They seem to work excellently. The fuel system and lines are new as well. When I throttle up I get to 3,000 rpms as well and then I seem to have a binding point with both throttles as though there is a setting with the Morse controls that sets the max throttle. Something seems off with the morse controls because I can't push them the entire way forward. The engines don't seem to be starving for gas or misperforming in anyway so I think I've ruled out most ofthe mechanicals on the engine itself. So...how do you set these controls so I can blow more gas out my exhaust pipes?

 

[MikeP]

With engines off, put the controls at full throttle, check to see that the carb throttle plates are fully open. Don't confuse the choke plate on the carbs with the throttle plate. The choke plate is the top plateand and will be closed if the engine is cold. Just hold it open and look into the carb. If the throttle plates do not appear to be fully open, disconnect the morse linkage from the carb and manually open the throttle with the linkage on the carb where the Morse attaches.

If the carb linkage will open further, you need to adjust the position of the cable in relation to the carb linkage to ensure you get full throttle. There are normally adjustments on both ends of the cables - engine end and control-end. Most of the time there is a fitting at the engine to hold the cable in a specific spot, locking the cable to the fitting. However, there may be a friction type clamp fitting that holds the cable at the proper position at the engine. If so, the cable can be slid forward or backward and then the helm end can be adjusted to interface properly with the controls.

If you have dual stations, a linkage problem in one helm position will affect the other. Disconnect the upper helm cables, adjust the lower-to-engine and then adjust the upper to lower. Make sure that after you can obtain full throttle, you can also obtain idle!!

 

[Jackman]

Mike,

Thanks for the help, When I get a chance, hopefully this weekend, I'll make use of your post to make sure everything is set correctly. My Dad nad I rebuilt the Roch Carbs so hopefully readjusting the cables will do the trick. I think in the midst of trying to reposition the throttles, because they didn't line up properly with each other, I screwed up the range I can push the throttles forward at the helm. I just have to figure out what each of the two or three screws at the helm controls do. I think I may have shortened my available throttle range by misadjusting one of the screws on the morse controls at the helm. Now that you told me how to set the morse controls to the range of the carb linkage I should be able to solve my problem.

Thanks!

 

[Jackman]

I finally got the linkage adjusted thanks to mike. My morse controls are now set to accomodate the full range of my 4MV Quadrajet carbs. Now it runs better but I don't have WOT as of yet. I don't think the engines are starving for fuel at about 16-18gph at 16knots, but I think they may be starving for air, too rich, because they hit a point where I can't get above 16knots and the boat works to get there. The exhaust seems to show signs of the engine burning rich. I guess I'll look into the mixture on the carb, my metering rods and maybe see if my valves need adjusted. Wouldn't improperly adjusted intake valves cause the engine to starve for air at high rpms and thus lower my ability to reach WOT?

The engines sound great at idle, oil pressure is excellent. They also run pretty good until I try to reach WOT or anything above 15 or 16 knots. Granted I now have 20x18x3 props on instead of the 17 inch props that were on before I got it...but 20x18 is what Hatteras spec'd the boat out at when new. Should go faster and run more efficient.

 

[garyd]

In order to make things equal I would start out by putting new wires, new rotor & cap, and new coils on these engines. Of course change the plugs. Clean the airfilters. Set a base ie full fuel no water no extra stuff just two people, light chop 75 degrees.

Then do your tests, make sure the bottom is clean.

This will tell you what you can expect.

The fuel flow at WOT is determined by the float adjustment in the carb. If you're seeing black smoke tooooo rich. white smoke toooo lean. Steam is normal as long as there is not tooooo much.

Changing carbs probably will not do anything. However you could add an aluminum high rise. Reduce weight better fuel atomiztion. You could also open up the exhaust.

This will give you the max. horsepower you can get out of these engines without getting into the engines.

have fun boating garyd.

 

[Trojan]

Take a plug reading. Run the boat WOT,shut it off. Pull the plugs.
Check the color. You will see if its rich or not. Bill

 

[MikeP]

Let's look at the symptoms as I understand them from the description - the engines run fine at idle, fine at cruise, but will not achieve the proper WOT RPM which, for 454 engines is probably 4000 to 4400 RPM - check the manual to be sure. We'll assume the props are suitable to get the engine into this range if they are running properly. It would be useful first to know the actual RPM the engines will turn at WOT but absent that...

Some possibilities occur to me and I'd check in this order, progressing if the current item didn't fix the problem:

CHECK THE SPARK PLUG WIRES CAREFULLY TO ENSURE THEY GO FROM THE PROPER TERMINAL ON THE CAP TO THE PROPER PLUG. Ah, you say, but if they are wrong, the engine will missfire badly. Not so! The firing order for these engines is 18436572 (and the reverse for the other engine depending on whether the engine or the tranny takes care of having counter-rotating props) . The 5 and 7 wires can be exchanged and the engine will run quite well. It won't make the power it is supposed to but it won't noticeably misfire. I have seen this on numerous occasions - check it.

Check that the choke plates are full open when the engines are warmed up. If they're not, they will cause the engine to run very rich and produce black smoke from the exhaust.

Try another WOT run with the air filter/flame arrestor removed from the engines (the usual safety blah-blahs applies). Any difference? If yes - clean or replace them. If no, they are not causing an air restriction. If possible, while this WOT run is happening, LOOK down into the carb throats to see that the primary throttle valves (small butterflies) and the secondary throttle valves (big butterflies) are wide open. The air valve secondaries - the big butterflies at the top of the large secondary venturis will not normally open at all by just reving up the engine at the dock, there has to be a load. The secondaries are air valve/metering rod devices. There is no direct mechanical inkage opening them. If they arent' opening fully there is a clogged passage, air leak, or other such problem that can only be sorted out by disassembly and cleaning.


You said the ignitions were new and the timing was correct so I'll ignore that part except check the timing again. Too advanced, it will ping a lot, too retarded and it will overheat and not make much power. There are a lot of different timing specs - check the manual but the old standard was always 10 degrees BTDC which was normally a touch more advance than oem and worked very well.

It's also worth pulling one spark plug, hooking the wire back up to it, and laying the plug it on the intake manifold, preferably on an unpainted area. Crank the engine and see that you get a good BLUE spark jumping between the electrode and the rim of the plug. If you get a red or orange spark, there is likely a problem in the primary ignition circuit that could limit the engines ability to fire the plug at high power settings - although this will normally produce an obvious misfire.

Next, I'm going to make the dangerous assumption that no one has changed the carbs' (Rochester Quadrajets, I assume - not a favorite of mine...) main jets, or metering rods to other than oem...

Too much fuel (rich) or insufficient fuel (lean)? Both could cause the problem although insufficient fuel is more common. If the float setting - as noted by Garyd - is too low, the float bowls cannot be refilled by the oem pump fast enough at WOT to keep up with the demand (although a high volume aftermarket pump could probably do it). The floats act upon a viton-tipped needle that projects into the opening where the fuel enters the carb. When the float rises high enough, it shuts off the fuel flow into the carb. When it drops, it opens the flow. If the float is set too high, it won't usually cause a problem unless it is so high that fuel actually overflows the bowl and spills into the venturi. But if this is the case, it will be worst at idle and low RPM - usually stalling the engine.

The float setting actually has nearly no influence on the metering of the carburetor - the float's function is simply to ensure that the proper amount of fuel is in the float bowls at all times. As long as sufficient fuel is avaialble to cover the main jets and not overflow into the venturis there is no useful difference in carb metering by changing the level on other than an all-out race engine. So this long winded explanation is headed toward - check the float levels.


The rest might be worth looking at and then next one is something you should repair at some point...

Now to a standard Q-jet problem - leaking casting plugs. If you have Q-jets and you haven't done or had this mod done, do it when you partially disassemble the carb to check the float levels... just keep disassembling. Note: Leaking casting plugs create an over-rich mixture and like many over-rich problems will commonly show up worse at idle and low speed than at high speed.

There are a ton of websites that describe this problem and the repair. Type a search on "Quadrajet leaks" and you will find a description of how to fix them with epoxy. I found this site and it's as good as any: http://www.carcraft.com/howto/57178/ Ignore the upfront blather about how it's really a great carb! The section you want is about half way through the article.

Any epoxy will probably work but I always used JB Weld for this fix when I couldn't convince people to replace Q-jets with Holleys or there was no choice but to use the oem carbs as required in Stock or Super Stock classes.


There can be other problems that can cause the symptoms - jumped timing chains, or improper valve timing when a chain was replaced. for example. But these seem unlikely to me - especially if both engines are acting the same way. If the same person rebuilt both carbs or redid the tune-up/spark plug wires/timing, etc. it's possible they duplicated the same operation on both engines.

Your question regarding the valves...I don't think this is very likely. They are hydraulic lifters so there are no settings to adjust unless some dummy changed them to solids (Yeah, if someone did that they were a dummy, tell 'em I said so!) Of course, if the hydraulics were replaced or the valve trains removed and the lifters not reinstalled and bled correctly, you could have some valves that are not fully seating and are essentially leaking. If this happend you would not be getting the appropriate power.

I wouldn't bother with alleged performance-enhancing bolt-on engine mods of any kind. Frankly. much as I hate 'em, I'd even leave the Q-jets on (I did on my last boat) but I would definitely perform the epoxy repair.

Let us know how it's going!

 

[Jackman]

Mike,

Sorry I didn't get back so fast. I had to take a week or two break from the boat.

Anyhow. I was able to turn the props enough to get her up to about 15 or 16kts max, burning 16gal per hour from each engine. The RPMs were about 3200. I noticed the floscan gauge bouncing back and forth on occasion between 12 and 16gph`as though the secondaries were having a tough time opening.

Once back at port I rechecked the floscan tachs and the were right on according to my NIST tracible tach. I checked the spark plugs and found them to have black residue from burning rich. I wasn't sure if this was from the fact that the engines weren't broken in yet and burning oil or I was burning gas rich. I focused on the carbs. I figured that I may be burning rich...too much gas not enough air. I had full throttle range in neutral but under load the primary and secondary overlap was not correct. I was getting the gas flow at WOT according to floscan but maybe I wasn't getting the air I needed. So I adjusted the spring that puts tension on the secondary butterflies to make them open up sooner. In an article I read a guy said that to start off the adjustment of this spring it should be one half a turn until the spring loses contact with the screw. When I losened the screw it was at least two revolutions until the screw lost contact witht the spring. I figured the secondary butterflies were set too stiff, more difficult to open....so I set them so that they were around 1/2 turn from spring contact and then used a weight to make sure both carbs required about the same for opening. (Had to adjust the second carb to be equal with the first one.) Regardless I ran out of time and won't be able to try them until I get down there again. Work is busy and I can call in sick....unfortunately not retired like some of you!

One question....I read the intake manifold vacuum on 454's should be about 17 to 21 inches. If I put a vacuum gauge on the rubber line hooked to the vacuum break on the carb to the intake side of the carb what vacuum should I have at idle? I Figured I should have something close to 17-21inches but I have a drop at about 15 at idle of 650rpms. Maybe a vacuum leak on the intake manifold somewhere? Also one engine seems to have a slight variation in vacuum at idle as though I have ring issues. Could this be because I'm not yet broken in and the rings may not yet be seated?

Thanks!

 

[MikeP]

Although vacuum is a common evaluation tool for engines, I have never found it to be very good unless coupled with other evaluation tools. The 17-21 inch reading that has always been quoted as appropriate is a good example. I have seen very few engines that actually showed that vacuum. Cam timing, cam duration, and cam overlap specs will change the reading substantially. So will ignition timing. Idle vacuum readings are in the 15-16 range on most high performance engines so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

Fluctuations in the reading - that is the needle periodically dips noticeably as the engine idles - is usually indicative of a valve problem or an ignition misfire. This could be a valve setting (unlikely with hydraulic lifters) or a problem with the valve not seating properly. A compression check will show this as will a cylinder leak-down check.

Fouled plugs...The plugs should not be fouled for any reason if they are the correct heat range for the engine. Rebuilt engines should not burn oil. This is a common misconception about new engines or rebuilds. If an engine is properly built, it will not burn oil noticeably while breaking in. It will never foul the plugs. If it does, it indicates that the cylinder wall finish was incorrect for the type of rings used. For example, moly rings use an entirely different (smoother) finish than chrome rings. It could also indicate a really bad (too wide) ring gap or ring gaps that were aligned instead of staggered. However, this would point to a totally incompetent engine builder/shop. So I suspect it is none of this. It is probably an airflow issue or improper airflow signal to or within the carbs.

The secondary air valve setting has no bearing on the fuel/air ratio delivered to the engine. It only affects the moment that the secondaries will begin opening in relation to the engine workload. If the secondaries never opened, it would not cause the plugs to foul, it would just mean the engine would never get enough fuel AND air to provide max power. If, on the other hand, they are set to open too early, the engine will bog. It is much better for them to open late than to open too early. It does sound as though the secondaries are not opening. When the carbs were rebuilt were all the passages thoroughly cleaned out? If all the little air passages are not clean, the air valve secondaries will not get the proper signal and will not open since they are not mechanically linked to the throttle buterflies. One other related item...if there is an exhaust restriction, it will cause a dramatic loss of power and prevent the engine from pumping air as it should which would never allow enough flow to open the secondaries. How old are the mufflers? Are they known to be OK?

I don't suppose you have access to another Qjet that is known to be working OK? You could bolt it on and see how it acts. Also, the floscan bouncing up and down and the limited RPM could also indicate that the float level is too low and the fuel pump is not able to keep up. Along that line - do you know that the fuel pumps are in good shape and the filters not partially clogged? There should be three filters for each engine - a main filter mounted in a remote location, a small canister filter with a replaceable element mounted on the engine, and a small filter mounted at the carb fuel inlet. This last filter is under the fitting with the large bolt where the fuel line attaches to the carb.

Did you have the opportunity to actually watch the carbs with their flame arrestors removed on a full throttle run to see if the secondaries are opening? I'd really recommend this if you can get someone to run the boat while you watch.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I am not a Qjet fan and that's putting it very tactfully. They are needlessly complicated and exhibet a variety of design problems from bad floats to leaking castings. However, it could well be that in this case they are not causing the problem, just reacting to the problem.

There are a lot of possible issues that can cause the problem you are having but going on and on will probably just be confusing. Keep in mind that it is usually the simple stuff. I will continue to assume that the engine builder was competent. If not, there's myriad ways to screw up an engine to perform badly.

A compression check would be very useful...

 

[Jackman]

Thanks Mike,


I'll perform the compression check when I get down to the boat next. (I got one of those professional mechanic sets from Matco from my brother.) I would still tend to think its coming from the carb setup, though. What is the possability that both engines, both of which are newly rebuilt, have compression problems? Its good to have a baseline compression reading, which I did neglect to do. Kinda stinks that you can't trust someone whom you pay a lot of money to get a job done anymore. If my grandfather was still living he would have built these engines for me (He and my great grandfather were two generations of racing and both owned a garage.)....had to rely on someone else...

I'm guessing the mufflers are original..at least they look like the original ones Hatteras would have put in. Water flow seems normal and sufficient and the sound coming from them sounds typical of a big block...meaning no pitch change or difference between the port and starboard.

I don't recall if I mentioned that we got these carbs as rebuilds from a well used rebuilder as carbs rebuilt for 1985 454's. I can only assume they put in the correct jets and metering rods. Since I got these carbs my dad and I stripped them down and cleaned them up. New gaskets and rebuild parts kits. They had to be taken apart because they were sitting during the engine rebuilds. When we opened them up the bowls had corrosion in them from water, I guess. Everything was thoroughly cleaned out and put back together. Actually quite simple. We assumed the air valve settings for the secondaries were set correctly from the factory. Bad asssumption?

Is it possible that since the rebuilder put high volume oil pumps in and my oil pressure is 60psi at idle that I am pushing oil past the rings and burning it? Too much pressure?

I have all three filters in place as you discussed....I didn't get to actually see the secondaries open yet. I figured they were opening by the difference I saw in the flowscan. It just doesn't seem normal to be buring 16gal/hr per engine and not have them open? Can the primaries push that much fuel on their own without the secondaries?

I guess I'll change out the plugs since they have signs of the engine burning rich on them...while I'm doing that check the compression. Then I'll see what happens with the new carb adjustments.

 

[Trojan]

You changed props! What is the the pitch on the old props. Three inches of dia. larger is a big jump. There might be nothing wrong with the engines. Fuel flow is not to far off at WOT. There is still a breakin time on these engines just after rebuild. I would look more at the prop dia. and pitch. The pitch first. Sounds like you are overloading the engines. They won't come up to RPM and clean out because of an over propped condiction. Throw on the old props and try it. You know how the old props worked. Get backed to basics that you know. You may be,are fishing in the wrong pond for the type of fish you want to catch. Been there, took 2 months of trying this and that to get the rpms I wanted. Would not get over 1,800 rpm.. New carbs, new manifolds, new air filters,new wires,new fuel filters,new breakerless points, you name it. Everything added up correct. All I wanted to do is get better performance. These parts were put on at dry dock before going in. Only to find out that the yard had messed up one of my props at launch. I felt real dumb after that. I new the props were good, I thought. 2 weeks old at take out. S--- Happens. Fixed the prop everything worked out. Good luck .Bill

 

[MikeP]

Oops...I thought we had determined way back that the props were right for the application. They are the most obvious candidates for the cause of this problem. As Trojan suggested, put the originals back on and try it again before

Re oil...A high volume oil pump is often (unnecessarily) added to a performance engine. It, in itself, does not cause oil burning. However, it can contribute. Oil burning is the result of insufficient oil control by the piston rings and/or the valve guides and valve seals. There is no other way for oil to get into the combustion chamber. That being said, a high volume pump does do exactly what it says - provide a higher volume of oil than a standard pump. The disadvantage is that a lot more oil will be present for the rings and valve guides to control. Too much oil can overwhelm both.

I would not personally install a high volume pump on a "standard" engine because it is a solution for which there is no problem. The only need for a high volume pump is if the engine clearances are set up very "loose." This was (is) often done (needlessly) with high performance engines. With main and rod clearances that are sometimes double oem clearances, a high volume pump is needed to provide sufficient oil. It's kind of a catch 22 deal and is totally unnecessary if the engine clearances are set up properly. 60PSI at idle is an INSANE amount of oil pressure. 60 is a reasonable MAX RPM figure. Idle pressure doesn't need to be more than 20PSI.

 

[MikeP]

OOPS - accidentally hit send before I meant to - the opening section of my previous post shoud read: As Trojan suggested, put the originals back on and try it again before doing any more of this engine troubleshooting. The overloading of the engine could easily explain the low RPM and the loading-up of the spark plugs.

 

[Jackman]

But the props I have on now are set to original Hatteras specs. New, the boat had on 20x18 3 bladed nibrals. The previous owner had the original props cut down two or three inches. I took them off before the rebuild and put on a set of newly reconditioned and scanned 3 bladed 20x18's. If Hatteras specd the engines correctly, which I'm sure they did, I should get 4200 to 4400 rpms with the 20x18x3's. I'm not, that's the problem. I'm only getting 3100 or so. I'm getting on plane sooner, like at about 2600rpms...but not achieving the proper rpms at WOT.

 

[Genesis]

Hatt spec'd my boat with 26x28s - there ain't no way that was right.

Factory propping is not always correct......

 

[Eufaula]

My quarters worth, I replaced my distributors with electronic ignitions and had to change the timing to 0 degs. vis 10 degs. on 10 I found hard starting and backfiring. And, Mike was right on with the firing order it can be misspls. and not show any downfall.

Good luck.

 

[Trojan]

The fact that your getting on plane faster and not reaching the WOT RPM.. Is a good indication that it is over propped. Once the boat is on top and the RPM starts to climb you run out of torque and you don't have enough HP. to keep the RPM climbing. A prop with less pitch would let you use the HP and torque to your advantage. The rule is to turn the biggest wheel you can with the smallest pitch. That is the advantage of the diesel,the torque is always the same. Your getting beyond the torque range of the engine and your just running out of poop. Most engines are designed to have the torque range around the mid point in the RPM range. You can move this torque range by changing the intake manifold,exhaust manifold,cam and crank or all the above. You may just be carrying more weight than the original boat. A high volume pump is not a good idea unless your turning high RPMs under load. Like a drag engine. To much oil and you wash the bearings and don't get the proper lube. It squirts out the sides of the bearings. Oil burning is blue in color. Gas burning is black. Bill

 

[67hat34c]

I vote props as well. however before you change them out, make sure you go through both engines first, top to bottom. once you confirm they are running properly take props to shop and tell them what the are doing.

our 34c has 454's with1.88:1 gears prior props were 19x20 i think. we were getting 4400 wot out of them. we now have 4 bladed props and are over propped, 4000 wot. next haul out we will get them in shape.

However before we haul and have them changed i too need to go through the engines. We noticed a drop in rpm's towards the end of the 3 bladed set. i think because one of them was bent.

 

[Jackman]

67Hat34C,

That's what I'm confused about now....

My current props as scanned ect...are 3 bladed 20x18's as originally spec'd. My trannies are 1.99 to 1 inline velvet drives. So my ratio is a bit different than yours but my prop is only one inch larger *(lose 200 rpms erlative to yours), and my prop is two degrees less in pitch (which should allow me to gain rpms relative to yours...my engines only turn about 3100 to 3200 rpms. I don't think I should have a 1300 rpm difference from your performance. We don't seem all that different when you consider the three bladed props you were using.

I am planning on making one last "go over" before I turn my head in the direction of the props. I just reset the air valves on the quadrjets the way they should be, maybe that will make the difference. According to the manual and a few other quadrajet pros the air valve screq on the carb should be set to one quarter of a turn past the contact with the spring. I noticed upon losening this screw initially that it was probably 1.5 turns from cantact with the spring. The airvalves seem to have been too tight. We'll see what happens. Meanwhile I'll clean up the old props with are about 17.5 by 20 3blades.

 

[67hat34c]

I would tend to agree. besides you should be turning more hp on the rebuilds. I would also recommend you pull the mufflers make sure nothing grew in the exhaust while it was laid up. What about engine allignment, go ahead and re check that.