Jumping Ship?

[richardoren]

Sort of - but not really...

Keeping the vintage Hatt, but seeking a big brother for displacement cruising.

You may know I've been looking into buying an older passagemaker needing a bit of TLC. The Hatteras Long Range Cruisers are far out of my price range so I am considering an old custom boat boasting a pair of early seventies DD 6-71 naturals (225hp model methinks).

I'm trying to see what kind of consumption and range I'd get running them at fairly low rpms to maintain a hull speed (full displacement hull) of 9 knots. Could I bank on them sipping pretty close to exactly 3/4 of what 8-71n's would drink and 1/2 of 12-71n's , or is that too simplistic a calculation?

A pair of DD 2-71's power a couple of 20Kw generators - is this fuel efficient or are we talking 'way obsolete' by today's frugal generator standards?

As you may presume from the pictures, they've logged on some hours and I'm wondering what it would cost to rebuild them (all 4) - any ballpark ideas? Thanks in advance for your Detroit Diesel savvy!

Richard

 

[Trojan]

I think you can get them rebuilt in the boat for around $2000. per hole. Depending where you have them rebuilt at and who does them. N. S. E. or W.


BILL

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

Is that some kind of steering device in he lower left corner?

 

[REBrueckner]

It's impossible to know how many HP it will take to drive an unknown hull at 9 knots. Or which engine models/injectors are installed. (The boat under consideration may be incapable of 9 knots with the installed engines.)

A July 1969 DD handbook shows these representative fuel consumptions: HP shown are at max rated RPM

6V71, N70 pleasure craft injectors, 240 SHP, about 7 gal/hr at 1800 RPM,
prop HP about 117

6-71, N70 pleasure craft injectors, 240 SHP, about 7 gal/hr at 1800 RPM,
prop HP about 125

6-71, HV8 pleasure craft injectors, 235 SHP, almost 8 gal/hr at 1800,
prop HP about 117

6-71, S55 work boat injectors, 174 SHP, almost 10 gal/hr at 1800 (WOT)*

about 4.5gal/hr at 1400 RPM, 80 prop HP



8V71, N70 pleasure boat injectors, 325 SHP, just over 9 gal/hr at 1800 RPM

8V71, N55 work boat injectors, 230 SHP, almost 13 gal/hr at 1800 (WOT)*

6 gal/hr at 1400 RPM

* These work boat engines are rated at 1800 rather than 2300 RPM.

Good luck....

 

[REBrueckner]

Of course these engines and gennies are "obsolete"....so who cares?

I'd opt for an engine and genny survey before considering a wholesale rebuilding compaign.

These kinds of engines rarely fail completely and utterly at one time. Most often the pistons/rings/valves/injectors begin to gradually wear, some smoke appears at the exhaust...and commercial owners run them for another 5,000 hours before doing anything!!! Of course checking raw water pumps, exhaust smoke, operating temperatures, etc is always a good idea.

You should consider how many annual hours you'll be running these. At 500 annual hours for example, how much would you save in fuel even if you could afford new gennys? new engines? Payback would likely be 10 years, likely a lot longer.
On the other hand, if you can do the work yourself and enjoy it, why not rebuild one item each off season...draw your own conclusions after disassembly about what work is required....

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Thats an antique chain/cable drive shifter. Pretty reliable/industrial. A butch to set. 2-71s (53s?) w/ dry manifolds (1 D.C. unit?) 1800 rpm noise will drive you out. Asbestos insulation?
No gen.exhaust hangers. Lighting looks good. Insulated steel Feadship? They look dry-- why worry about a rebuild? They look reasonably well serviced. Not a lot of fingerprints on the silver valve covers. New gen. shut down solenoid. Spin on fuel filters. Hosing looks a little hoky. Transom or side exhaust? What kind of clutches? Are those stairs galvanized?
Need more pix of the rest of the boat. Lazarette and forestep especially.

 

[yachtsmanbill]

It's impossible to know how many HP it will take to drive an unknown hull at 9 knots. Or which engine models/injectors are installed. (The boat under consideration may be incapable of 9 knots with the installed engines.)

A July 1969 DD handbook shows these representative fuel consumptions: HP shown are at max rated RPM

6V71, N70 pleasure craft injectors, 240 SHP, about 7 gal/hr at 1800 RPM

6-71, N70 pleasure craft injectors, 240 SHP, about 7 gal/hr at 1800 RPM

6-71, HV8 pleasure craft injectors, 235 SHP, almost 8 gal/hr at 1800

6-71, S55 work boat injectors, 174 SHP, almost 10 gal/hr at 1800 (WOT)*

about 4.5gal/hr at 1400 RPM



8V71, N70 pleasure boat injectors, 325 SHP, just over 9 gal/hr at 1800 RPM

8V71, N55 work boat injectors, 230 SHP, almost 13 gal/hr at 1800 (WOT)*

6 gal/hr at 1400 RPM

* These work boat engines are rated at 1800 rather than 2300 RPM.

Good luck....

Arent the workboat ratings continuous? Most of the 6Ns (marine) Ive worked on never needed rebuilding. Unless theres a catastrophic failure. I think 9knots out of a steel boat may be pushing it. From an economics point of view anyway. Our 45 steel tug with a single 6-71 runs about 6mph. This one runs like a ROLODEX. The gen is a 2-71 w/ a.c. removed for installation.

 

[richardoren]

I think you can get them rebuilt in the boat for around $2000. per hole. Depending where you have them rebuilt at and who does them. N. S. E. or W.
BILL

Hi Trojan,

Thanks for the ballpark numbers - way cool. The engine room is aft (v-drive setup) so they can just be lifted up and out of a hatch, no need for an in boat major.

Cheers,

Richard

 

[richardoren]

Of course these engines and gennies are "obsolete"....so who cares?
I'd opt for an engine and genny survey before considering a wholesale rebuilding compaign.
These kinds of engines rarely fail completely and utterly at one time. Most often the pistons/rings/valves/injectors begin to gradually wear, some smoke appears at the exhaust...and commercial owners run them for another 5,000 hours before doing anything!!! Of course checking raw water pumps, exhaust smoke, operating temperatures, etc is always a good idea.
You should consider how many annual hours you'll be running these. At 500 annual hours for example, how much would you save in fuel even if you could afford new gennys? new engines? Payback would likely be 10 years, likely a lot longer.
On the other hand, if you can do the work yourself and enjoy it, why not rebuild one item each off season...draw your own conclusions after disassembly about what work is required....

OK RE, I won't rebuild if not totally necessary. I did want to price it out since the owner was ill and they haven't run for a year...

I can't say what the injectors are, the broker doesn't know diddly about the boat and the owner isn't in shape to ask questions, a shame since he had the boat built. The superstructure in entirely out of wood and has sprung leaks, so there's quite a task at hand. I only hope that the water didn't make its way into the hull, as we all know that steel boats rust from the inside out. I don't mind wood work as long as it can get under control and made well protected in a durable fashion (ie CPS or Rot Doctor's blend).

It seems that engines would be the least of my worries...

 

[richardoren]

Arent the workboat ratings continuous? Most of the 6Ns (marine) Ive worked on never needed rebuilding. Unless theres a catastrophic failure. I think 9knots out of a steel boat may be pushing it. From an economics point of view anyway. Our 45 steel tug with a single 6-71 runs about 6mph. This one runs like a ROLODEX. The gen is a 2-71 w/ a.c. removed for installation.

Hiya Bill,

Kind of you to help out.

It is NOT a Feedship, you know I don't move in that crowd. It is a Japanese built custom (no hollering please).

I have no pics of the Lazarette or forestep, but its fuel and water tanks are unfortunately built into the hull - ouch. If they're rusty this means cutting up the hullside to remove them.

It has freshly rebuilt Casale V-drives, and since the engine room is in the place of the aft cabin, the exhaust is inevitably at the transom.

It however does go faster than that there Tug, here is what the boat diesel calculator came up with for its weight, hull shape, v-drives and waterline length:

DISPLACEMENT HULL
Hull Speed: 10.0 kts.
Power Required: 351 shp.

Speed
To Achieve a Cruising Speed of 9 kts
Required Power
Total At Props: 254 SAE hp 189 kW
Total At Flywheels: 262 SAE hp 195 kW
At Flywheel per Engine: 131 SAE hp 97.6 kW

Select Engines(2):
Rating SAE HP Metric HP kW Max Kts*
Pleasure 187 189 139 10.0
Light 164 166 122 9.8
Medium 145 147 108 9.4
Heavy 133 135 99.6 9.2
* Maximum knots at 100% engine output

Later,

Richard

 

[yachtsmanbill]

I had to ask... there was a pair of Feadships, one near NYC and one on L.I. They both need bottom work / frames but are both completely re-plated and afloat.
Also one in N.C. JFK supposedly entertained M.M. on board.
Who makes Casale V drives? Any of them are tuff to align. Japs know how to build boats too. But, the steel is sometimes questionable. In the last 20 years they have gluttonized the scrap market before the chinamen got a hold of it.
A lot of the hardware / fasteners are metric FYI. If the top is wood and rotten, consider a tear off and rebuild to what you want. I am a little surprised about that, oriental boat building is usually with teak (affordable there!) Or is it a bedding job and just leaking? I notice some streaks in the ER insulation. That needs to be examined too; steel boats sweat.
Fuel and water WING tanks are a little trouble too. If the bottom of them is bad just cut out the sections and refit new. Pretty straightforward. If the plating is 10 Ga. or better - 1/8th" or more, a mig welder will make short work out of that. Consider free standing tanks. Better for condensation anyway.
Lets see some overall pix ! HATT TRICK is in Iuka,Mississippi awaiting a weather window for the trip home. ws

 

[jim rosenthal]

Oh boy, are you going to be busy..............

 

[Nonchalant1]

What's the length??? LWL is critical if you want 9 knots out of it, as I'm sure you know.

Hopefully it's at least 48 ft at the waterline, otherwise, you won't have a 9 knot hull speed and pushing it up above hull speed is almost impossible on a full displacement boat, unless you tow it with an aircraft carrier.

Doug

 

[Boss Lady]

I would keep looking until I found a decent boat. There are some real bargains on classic Hats right now. I think if you googled up "money pit", there would be a picture of this boat.

 

[mopester]

Per a conversation with yacthsman bill (he said i might have a good point of view or expiriance)

Here is my two cents.

I have been around the commercial fleet for twenty years. The drippy detroits will last forever. i've run 471n/653n/692t/and 871ti's. Ive run a boat 120 degress over on it side and the dd's didnt skip a beat or drop any oil. Nothing, just steady and reliable!!!!

You need to run texaco oil (forgot type) and keep the fuel filters clean. The dd's will run on squirell pee! my boat hadnt run in four years. i put new batts in cleaned the filters and bowls, changed the oil and cranked em up, and wholy smoke!!! but it cleared out and i ran from fort laud to newport.

Basicly any detroit will run forever. once it is broken in it is rare that you have a catastophic failure. the only thing that usually causes that would be metal fatigue from overheat, underheat causeing excess wear etc. Your pics dont show anything lke that going on and they are actually not covered in oil!!!!!!

You could get a quick borescope done through the airboxes. I did that before the previuos mentioned items on my 48yf 871ti's before i bought it and it and still had cross hatchings on the liners. The engine survey wil be well worth the money.

Yachtman bill, As recently as two years ago i was running a boat with the industrial shifter mechanism, rugged and reliable!!!!!!!!!!!!. quite different than the electronic mtu's im running now. Cant feel nothing and has a lag!

I also wouldnt worry about steel. its fairly cheap compared to some glass guys, and the "comercial yards", the kinds the fisherm and tugs etc use maybe cheaper than "yacht yards" plus the marine steel epoxie paits are great once applied

For what it worth,

Mike.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

There is no way that I would pay for an engine survey on those 71's. You will be thowing your money away. We have debated the "to survey or not survey" question in the past and I believe that most engine surveys are a waste of time and money. If you can buy the boat right, what good is a survey? You can tell if those 71's are decent just by a cold start and then running them up to temp under load. From what I see, those DD's are the least of your worries on this boat.

 

[Walter P]

After looking at those pictures and reading the thread, I have a question....
Why? There must be a better way to get a deal on a boat. It seems that you just may be better off starting from scratch and build your own.

Sky's advice seems to make sense regarding the engines... Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[mopester]

why dont you just run your hatt at an economical speed, or did i miss a reason in the thread?

we can disagree on the survey but for me it was a deal maker. after the results it confirmed that there was no major damage and that there was "life left in the dd's

Mike

 

[richardoren]

I had to ask... there was a pair of Feadships, one near NYC and one on L.I. They both need bottom work / frames but are both completely re-plated and afloat. Also one in N.C. JFK supposedly entertained M.M. on board.

Hey Bill - don't take me there - De Vries Feedships are really the deal, although too big for my purposes. I am already pushing it regarding docking costs looking at a boat under 70'. I got my fill of JFK entertaining Marilyn while staying at the CalNeva hotel at lake Tahoe last summer (great views of the lake BTW).

Who makes Casale V drives? Any of them are tuff to align.

Beats me... they ought to be aligned after rebuild a couple of years back.

Japs know how to build boats too. But, the steel is sometimes questionable. In the last 20 years they have gluttonized the scrap market before the chinamen got a hold of it. A lot of the hardware / fasteners are metric FYI.

I realize that the big industrial fishing fleets are built there, and the boat has a gyro pilot and other stuff usually found on commercial ships - so it is probably overbuilt. My main worries are rust and rot...

If the top is wood and rotten, consider a tear off and rebuild to what you want. I am a little surprised about that, oriental boat building is usually with teak (affordable there!) Or is it a bedding job and just leaking? I notice some streaks in the ER insulation. That needs to be examined too; steel boats sweat. Fuel and water WING tanks are a little trouble too. If the bottom of them is bad just cut out the sections and refit new. Pretty straightforward. If the plating is 10 Ga. or better - 1/8th" or more, a mig welder will make short work out of that. Consider free standing tanks. Better for condensation anyway.

The top is wood, and may well be made of teak: the leaks are pretty much located under fasteners such as beneath the flydeck davit. Furthemore all of the cabinetry is solid teak, and I don't see why an industrial ship builder would have used it for decorative purposes without using it where it is technically required, ie above deck. The broker said it needed a rebedding, so I assume he's not ill informed for once? Here is the main topside problem area:

You can see that at minimum she is well in need of quite an injection of TLC. I'm hoping that stripping, CPS Epoxy injection, caulking and coating can make it waterproof and water resistant in the long term.

Richard

 

[richardoren]

Oh boy, are you going to be busy..............

Hi Jim,

Thanks for joining in the fun. At a quarter of the price of an LRC I guess one has to consider fixer uppers. However I'd need to cost some of the work into a price reduction and have some help. While short of time, skills and money - the 3 big requirements of used boats - maybe the seller will kick back some of the latter to enable fixing the worst?

Cheers,

Richard