Inverter/Charger?

[stormchaser]

The 53MY that I have a deal pending on (Lady Linda, and I'm really happy/excited) still has the original battery charger and no interter. So, when under way or on the hook, if you want to run anything on 120v, you have to run the genset. I really want to get an inverter with a built in smart charger. Anyone have any sugegstions on ones to look at? I don't need anything HUGE, but I'd sure like to be able to do things like watch TV, turn on a 120v lamp, run the fridge, etc. Also...anyone done the install themselves or is this best left to the pros?

 

[MikeP]

THe Outback 3232 inverter/charger is a superb unit and, in my opinion, is THE unit for an old Hatt. 32v so it works perfectly with the oem system and 3200 watts so it can run just about anything you care to run short of the ac units. It also contains a smart charger that can perform battery equalization and all charging voltages can be set to match any type of battery for optimum performance.

I installed ours about two years ago and it is one of the best things I have ever purchased for the boat. Installation is quite simple IF you are comfortable working with electrical circuits. Buy the optional "Mate" control if you decide on this unit.

Do a search on Outback Inverter and you should find a lot of info.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I echo MikeP's comments. I own an Outback as well and it runs everything on the boat except the 220v loads. Outback is probably the only company that makes a 32v unit. Other 53 owners have installed separate 12v inverter banks, but I prefer to just run the inverter off of the OEM house bank.

 

[Brian Degulis]

I went with the outback also it's been trouble free. I also added an aditional alternator to my STB engine to keep up with the demand at low RPM.

Brian

 

[spartonboat1]

I also added an aditional alternator to my STB engine to keep up with the demand at low RPM.

Brian

That sounds smart. P.s., my 1953 Chris Craft double cabin had a big secondary 12v "generator" to augment the 6v generators on each engine. In today's terms that would be an alternator, except generators then did not gen alternating current...oh, never mind...old person's boring talk...

 

[Pascal]

the one thing that made me choose Magnum over Outback on the 70 i captain is the fact that the outback only has once input which is shared by the charger and the pass thru loads.

so, when on the generator in the evening, charging, etc.... the charger will back off depending on how many pass thru loads you have (fridge, some outlets and lights, etc...). When that happens you will end up running the genny longer. so let say you have the fridge/freezer running, the icemaker, couple of lights, TV, you could be pulling 20amps leaving only 10amps to charge the batteries.

That boat is 24v and i was installing 16 golf cart batteries to power the inverter anyway, so i wasn't restricted to 32v system. The MAgnums are well built, good support and made in the US.

On my 53, I put a Xantrex Freedom 30, it also has dual 30amp inputs so i get full 30amp for the charger no matter what, allowing me to recharge the 880AH banks (@12v) in 3 to 4 hours. I woudln't buy a Xantrex again though, i had to get it repaired twice under warranty in the 4 years i've had it.

the single input is not necessarily a big deal, it depends on how you use the boat, but it's something to be aware of.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

It depends on how you use the boat and how much you want to spend. It also depends on how much weight you want to add. If you go with a 12v or 24v inverter, you will have to add batteries. This means more weight and more to maintain.

If you go with a 32v inverter, you can use your existing batteries. The charging issue of the Outback can be remedied by adding a smart charger and not using the charge feature of the inverter. Or, you could use the charge feature, but not use the pass thru.

My inverter is not set up to pass thru. I have it set up to run the whole boat thru a rotary switch. When not inverting, it is completely shut off. I could, however, use the charge feature to it's full output while still running any other loads that I wanted to run. It all depends on how you set them up.

 

[MikeP]

Pascal's point is a good one - the Outback has a 30 Amp pass-through/charger output. Typically, on our 53, after we have been on the hook and are ready to run the genny, I see 18 or 19 amps for the charger initially. I have never seen a higher charging load than that though it could be if the batts are really drained. That means, as Pascal pointed out, that if 19 amps are needed for the charger, there are 11 amps left for pass through to run other items. And if a higher load for the other items is necessary, it will reduce the charging amperage appropriately. It's never been an issue for us but, as mentioned, depending on what you want to run at the time the batts are charging, it might be.

On the other hand, the charger is very efficient/effective and it doesn't take long for the charging load to drop.

The other items on that circuit are the TV/stereo, microwave, fridge, and a couple of table lamps.

 

[Pascal]

sky,

true, that's one way to do it but costly! how much does a high capacity 32v charger cost? even a "mainstream" 24v charger isn't cheap if you want the capacity of the charger portion of an inverter charger. My Freedom 30 puts out 150AMPS at 12v... I'm pretty sure the Magnum 4000 outputs 75amps at 24v.

a large charger isn't cheap... that's the benefit of an inverter/charger... you get a "free" high capacity chrager

 

[Brian Degulis]

I had the 30A single input problem on mine. I've got a lot running on the inverter so the charge current would go down to near nothing. So I put in a selector switch to by pass the inverter loads around the inverter when shore or gen is on. That solves the problem but now I have to switch to invert no more auto switching when the shore or gen is turned off.

Brian

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Pascal,
As I stated before, it depends on how much you want to spend. The PO had already put a nice new smart charger on my boat before I bought it. So, when I added the inverter, I really didn't need the charge function. I was just pointing out another way to solve the problem, which I agree with you, is a problem if you use the pass-thru setup.

But, as Brian pointed out, you can hook it up without using the pass thru and then you have the full charger output while still being to run all of your other loads off of the genny or shore power.

If I did not have the smart charger already, I would probably do as Brian suggested.

 

[stormchaser]

I had the 30A single input problem on mine. I've got a lot running on the inverter so the charge current would go down to near nothing. So I put in a selector switch to by pass the inverter loads around the inverter when shore or gen is on. That solves the problem but now I have to switch to invert no more auto switching when the shore or gen is turned off.

Brian

That sounds Ideal to me...I don't need it to auto-invert...frankly, I don't WANT it to. Now I jsut need to find a dealer that really knows these things, can do the install AND have it hooked up through a switch like you have.

Anyone have one installed recently and care to give me a ROUGH idea of cost?

 

[Pascal]

i dont' remember the exact price of the outback, the 4000 Magnum is around $2000.

the best place to install it is in the genny room since it's close to the batteries. that's the crtical part, you want it to be within 6' to minimize voltage drop. event at 6' you'll need 4/0 battery cable which isn't cheap, you may have to shop around... forget West Marine!

from the inverter you'll need to run two sets of wiring to the electrical panel, and add a switch if you're going that route. the panel isnt' far, so that's good...

i think i spent a couple of days on installing mine... some of the time was spent splitting the neutral bus so that only the inverter powered loads are connected to the inverter neutral. took me a little longer to install the magnum on the 70 footer, but that was because of the 16 batteries and all the jumpers i had to scrimp to connect them.

so figure a couple of days, at ... $100 an hour these days... $1600+ labor, $2000 inverter, $500 in wiring and things... although, one quote i got for the 70 came out to $250 an hour!

 

[MikeP]

Pass-through or not all depends on the loads you will be applying. I did the opposite of Brian. I originally had inverter circuits that could be switched on/off the inverter and ran the outback that way for a year, without using the charger/pass-through function. Then I purchased the Mate and eliminated the switches and ran the 30A automatic pass through and I love it - totally automatic and nothing to bother with now. You can turn the inverter on/off manually if you wish.

But the original separate circuits remain - the inverter cannot power the entire boat, only the specific circuits I mentioned earlier. In our case, there is no way to overload the circuit and reduce power to the charger except for rather short periods of a couple of minutes - running the Microwave which pulls 18 Amps at full power, for example. Nothing else (so far) will cause charger output to reduce.

So again, it obviously depends on how you want to set it up but I find the auto function to be just great though I didn't think I would.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Here is the link to a source for the Outback. Price $1500 without the Mate control panel. I think the Mate is about another $200.

http://www.wmjmarine.com/fx25232m.html

 

[stormchaser]

I think I'm confused. Could somebody explain the whole pass-through thing to me? Basically I'm looking for a two in one device...something to properly charge the batteries, but also supply 120vAC to some things (like outlets for TV, lamps, maybe the micro...not huge thigns like stove or A/C).

 

[doc g]

Pass thru allows you to run 30 amps of load THRU the inverter while 110v is available from the dock or genset. If you were to lose shore power the inverter switches automatically from charge to invert and seamlessly powers what is connected to it . But you are limited by the rating of the pass thru contacter. These Outbacks can only use 30 A thru the unit including the charge A's that are being used (110V),so as Mike pointed out if you have something that's drawing 18 A @110v you only have 12 A @110v left to charge the batts with. You can bypass it with a switch and this will allow to charge at the full 30 A and power all the rest of the boat normally. If install a by-pass / pass -thru switch to the I/C , with the switch in pass-thru pos'n the I/C is in the input line to your panel . In by-pass pos'n the I/C is installed on the load side of the panel as any other load would be. Basically installing a switch allows you to have the inverter set up both ways .The auto invert feature is nice . You do not have to run around and reset clocks, ovens ,vcrs, computers. You'll use it all the time . Hope this makes it more clear and I did not confuse you more..............Pat

 

[MikeP]

THe pass through is quite simple...

When electrical power from shore or genny is available (and connected to the Outback inverter ac INPUT), an electrical circuit is completed that allows up to 30Amps of power to "Pass Through" the inverter and on to whatever circuits are connected to the inverter. These could be the entire boat's 120vac system or whatever limited number of circuits you connect to it. Activatiion of the pass-through is completely automatic (you can select it NOT to be if you wish). If you have ac power it is passed through, if you don't the inverter supplies ac from battery power.

This 30Amps is the TOTAL available for those circuits AND the battery charger portion of the inverter. By design, the circuit load takes priority so if you need all 30 amps to run appliances, the battery charge will receive no power at all until the appliance load is reduced to below 30 amps.

You can choose NOT to connect any ac to the inverter ac input but if you do that, the inverter's battery charger is not functional. This is the way I connected mine for the first year. But I found the conveniance of the pass through, and the fact that I have some independent circuits that were originally wired to the old inverter and controlled by separate switches/relays, to be well worth it. It is also a far more efficient batt charger than the oem LaMarche but it is only connected to one battery bank so it does not charge both banks.

One note - Unless you wire some separate circuits, or someone else has already done so, the inverter would be trying to supply all the 120VAC loads on the boat which it cannot do. THis will work if you are careful what you turn on but I don't personally think it's the best way to set it up. Just set up some individual circuits for the Fridge, microwave, TV, Stereo, and a few wall sockets works very well.

Hope this helps.

 

[Pascal]

basically you have two possible set up.

1)- connect your inverter output to your boat electrical system with a selector switch, pretty much as if you had an extra generator. Inverter gets DC from batteries, makes that into 120V AC and you feed that to your panel with a selector switch. simple. downside is that you need to manually switch over (not really an issue) and that you need to add a selector switch to a usually crowded panel. heavy duty rotary switches aren't cheap, especially 3 positions (shore, gen, inverter). And you need to manually turn off the cricuits you dont' want to be inverter powered like water heater, battery charger, etc...

an alternative to a 3 pos rotary is to use two dual pole breakers with a safety slide so that only one breaker can be on at the same time. but again, you need to add that somewhere

2)- passthru/automatic transfer switch. Most large inverter/charges have that feature now. what you do is

- split your panel into two sub panel: inverter powered circuits (lights, fridge, etc...) and non inverter powered circuits (water heater, battery charger,...)
- disconnet the feed to the #1 sub panel (inverter powered)
- add a 30 amp breaker to the #2 sub panel (non inverter powered)
- send that breaker output to the inverter input
- connect the #1 subpanel to the inverter ouput.

you dont' really use a sub panel, you just group the breakers and slip the bus to isolate them, it's not like you are actually adding physical subpanels.

When shore or genny power is on, power comes from sub panel 2 and goes to the inverter, passes thru the inverter (hence the name) and goes to sub panel 1. the inverter remains off

When shore or genny power is off, the inverter sense loss of power on its input and turns on. the switch over is usually instantaneous (clocks dont' even blink...).

With the built in charger, the power that comes in from sub panel nr 2 is also used to charge the batteries. the problem is that you are limited to a total of 30amps for charging AND pass thru. So let's say your fridge is pulling 8amps, plus a few lights, a TV,etc... you're quickly going to get to 15amps being used to power all these passing thru the inverter, leaving only the remaining 15amps to charge.

With a dual input inverter, like the Magnums, you get your full 30 amps to power your load in pass thru mode PLUS another full 30 for the charger, reducing charging time.


note that in the above description, i dont' mention Air Cons since hatteras usually has the air cons on a different leg/panel

 

[Brian Degulis]

I think I'm confused. Could somebody explain the whole pass-through thing to me? Basically I'm looking for a two in one device...something to properly charge the batteries, but also supply 120vAC to some things (like outlets for TV, lamps, maybe the micro...not huge thigns like stove or A/C).

The inverter/charger has basically 3 sets of terminals they are battery leads which allow the batteries to supply power to convert into 120V to run the stuff on your boat. These leads will also allow DC power to go the other way back to the batteries for charging.

Then there are terminals for AC power out these supply the boat with the AC power the unit converts from battery power.

Then there are terminals for AC in these are connected to the boats AC system to supply power to the inverter unit. In the invert mode these terminals are not being used. In the non invert mode shore power or gen power going into these terminals is used for battery charging and to supply the loads you have hooked up to the inverter. So even when your not inverting the power used to supply all loads connected to the inverter must "Pass thru" the inverter.

If you wire the normal way described above you have completly automatic operation. When the inverter has AC input from shore or gen it's charging the batteries if needed and it's supplying power to the loads hooked up to the inverter. If AC input stops (shore and gen off)
the unit automaticaly goes into invert mode and supplies AC power to all loads hooked to the inverter using the batteries as a power source.

The problem with the normal set up is that the AC in terminals are limited to 30A total. So if you have 20A being used to power the boat you only have 10A available for battery charging. If your using 30A to power the boat you have 0A for battery charging. Our boats have lots of DC lighting and then you have the heads flushing plus other things all using DC regardless of weather shore or gen are on or off. So you could create a situation were your batteries are being run down at the dock or at anchor with the gen running.

To solve this you could leave your existing charger hooked up to charge the batteries. That's ok but the outback is a much better and more efiecent charger with features you'll want to use. So the other alternative is to use a 2 position 3 pole selector switch to route the AC power around the inverter when on shore or gen. This will allow the full 30A of inverter input to be used for charging. This needs to be done correctly you need a switch that will disconnect the inverter output from the unit and conect it to the boats power supply. THE INVERTER AC OUTPUT MUST NEVER BE CONNECTED TO THE BOATS POWER SUPPLY this will damage the inverter, So you need a selector switch to diconnect on and connect the other. Doing this will solve the problem but now you must position the switch for inverter or shore gen it is no longer automatic.

The auto feature is nice when your not around and the shore power goes out. It will keep the stuff in your fridge from spoiling. The unit can be set to stop inverting at a preset low DC voltage so your batteries don't get drawn down to low.

Brian